INFO-VAX Fri, 11 Feb 2005 Volume 2005 : Issue 83 Contents: Re: Bets being taken on Itanic survival [was] Re: HP's Carly Fiorina fired fir Decwindows resource names Re: Decwindows resource names Re: Decwindows resource names Re: Decwindows resource names Re: Decwindows resource names Re: DVE and maximum file count fonts used by java applets Re: grep on openVMS? HP should.... Re: HP should.... Re: HP should.... Re: HP should.... Re: HP should.... Re: HP should.... Re: HP should.... Re: HP should.... Re: HP should.... Re: HP should.... Re: HP's Carly Fiorina fired Re: HP's Carly Fiorina fired Re: Intrusion attempts Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Re: Loads of DS10L 466 in stock for $250 Re: Loads of DS10L 466 in stock for $250 Re: OpenVMS V8.2 (online) Communications Seminar Re: OpenVMS V8.2 (online) Communications Seminar Re: OpenVMS V8.2 (online) Communications Seminar Re: OpenVMS V8.2 (online) Communications Seminar RE: So how big a parachute did she have? Re: So how big a parachute did she have? Re: So how big a parachute did she have? Re: So how big a parachute did she have? Re: VAX 4000 m500A problem Re: VAX 4000 m500A problem Re: VICTORY !!! Carly fired, new hope for VMS ? Re: VICTORY !!! Carly fired, new hope for VMS ? Re: Why aren't more universities doing this? Re: Why aren't more universities doing this? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:35:24 +0100 From: Keith Cayemberg Subject: Re: Bets being taken on Itanic survival [was] Re: HP's Carly Fiorina fired fir Message-ID: <420bb77c$0$820$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net> David J Dachtera wrote: > John Smith wrote: > >>Colin Butcher wrote: >> >>>http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=21175 >> >>Now that the financial guy is in charge on an interim basis, as an agent of >>change, and has an intimate understanding of what really costs what - are >>there any takers that HP will step away from Itanic, and possibly enterprise >>computing altogether? > > > Enterprise is about the only place where HP makes any decent profit I suppose you were classifying the prin... Uhhh ink business as making an "indecent" profit. :-) Don't look now, but your good moral judgement is showing. :-) Cheers! Keith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:38:56 -0600 From: "Tom M" Subject: Decwindows resource names Message-ID: Where can I find the valid resource names for individual Decwindows applications (i.e. Decterm)? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:41:07 -0500 From: Jf Mezei Subject: Re: Decwindows resource names Message-ID: <420C0D26.3A8030FC@teksavvy.com> Tom M wrote: > > Where can I find the valid resource names for individual Decwindows > applications (i.e. Decterm)? You have to bribe one of the engineers in charge of decwindows/decterm.... Over the years,there have been tidbits released about various resources so Google on comp.os.vms may give you some hints. I guess looking at the image might reveal some list of resources. Do you have specific resources you want to change ? I recently asked about making the vertical scroll bar narrower, but it seems that the va;lue is hardcoded and no rousrce will change it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:46:55 -0600 From: "Tom M" Subject: Re: Decwindows resource names Message-ID: "Jf Mezei" wrote in message news:420C0D26.3A8030FC@teksavvy.com... > Tom M wrote: > > > > Where can I find the valid resource names for individual Decwindows > > applications (i.e. Decterm)? > > You have to bribe one of the engineers in charge of decwindows/decterm.... > > Over the years,there have been tidbits released about various resources > so Google on comp.os.vms may give you some hints. > > I guess looking at the image might reveal some list of resources. Do you > have specific resources you want to change ? > > I recently asked about making the vertical scroll bar narrower, but it > seems that the va;lue is hardcoded and no rousrce will change it. I wanted to change the color of the vertical scroll bar. I change the background color for the decterm based on the system I'm connecting to, but the scroll bar remains the default color. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:50:25 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Decwindows resource names Message-ID: <420C1D5F.ADDEC88@teksavvy.com> Tom M wrote: > I wanted to change the color of the vertical scroll bar. I change the > background color for the decterm based on the system I'm connecting to, but > the scroll bar remains the default color. You can find all resources for a XmScrollBar at: http://www.vaxination.ca/motif/XmScrollBaA_3X.html I think you need to remove the Xm prefix when you specify a resource in a .dat file. make sure you edit the right decw$terminal_defaults.dat. On my system, decw$terminal is confised between sys$login and decw$user_defaults: ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:35:27 -0600 From: "Tom M" Subject: Re: Decwindows resource names Message-ID: <2dWdnXSbq6tKtZHfRVn-ug@comcast.com> "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:420C1D5F.ADDEC88@teksavvy.com... > Tom M wrote: > > > I wanted to change the color of the vertical scroll bar. I change the > > background color for the decterm based on the system I'm connecting to, but > > the scroll bar remains the default color. > > You can find all resources for a XmScrollBar at: > > http://www.vaxination.ca/motif/XmScrollBaA_3X.html > > I think you need to remove the Xm prefix when you specify a resource in > a .dat file. make sure you edit the right decw$terminal_defaults.dat. > On my system, decw$terminal is confised between sys$login and decw$user_defaults: Thank You. I'll give that a try. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 2005 13:59:41 -0800 From: "Ed Wilts" Subject: Re: DVE and maximum file count Message-ID: <1108072781.751596.273880@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> Hi Rob, I originally saw Chris's question in e-mail so I responded that way. My application isn't actualy worse than that, but I can't initialize my volumes with a maximum file count taking into account the growth I need. In other words, I can't initialize a 9GB volume with a maximum file count of 25 million files and grow into that. With a cluster size of 8, I can't get more than just under 2 million files on the disk. If I don't start with a big volume, I can't grow into a bigger volume. I feel like I'm artificially trapped by the init procedure. Google wants to wrap the darn commands below, but starting with a 9GB volume that I want to grow to 25M files, I can't use /limit/cluster=8. Without the /limit, I an get 1.9M files, hardly what I want to grow to. I believe that 25M files is a reasonable number (provided my volumes stay well under 50GB). Audrey> INIT 2$DUA788/MAXIMUM_FILES=25000000/HEADER=25000000/DIRE=200 FOO/clu=8/limit %INIT-F-ALLOCFAIL, index file allocation failure Audrey> INIT $2$DUA788/MAXIMUM_FILES=25000000/HEADER=25000000/DIRE=200 FOO/clu=8 [I'd argue that the command should generate an error if it doesn't do what you tell it to, but that's not the issue today] Audrey> mou/over=id $2$dua788 foo foo %MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, FOO mounted on _$2$DUA788: (CICERO) Audrey> say f$getdvi("$2$dua788:","maxfiles") 1973816 Cheers, ..../Ed ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 2005 20:19:23 -0600 From: kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) Subject: fonts used by java applets Message-ID: I have a question regarding fonts used by applets launched by web browsers. In this case I'm launching an applet from CSWB 1.4 on VMS 7.3-2 and Motif 1.3-1 and it looks horrible. The text is overlapping, the button text exceeds the button size, etc. The same applet looks fine if done from a M$ box, but what good is that in the long run? Is there some way I can "import" M$ fonts to make this applet readable on my VMS box? P.S. It's not my applet, and the tech support for those that wrote it say use a M$ platform and all will be well. HA! Not in my world! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:16:26 -0800 From: Z Subject: Re: grep on openVMS? Message-ID: bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > for first time users it is not the way your brain works! I can > sit a new user or programmer down at vms and with little instruction > and the help facilities he is productive the first day ... in > unix land it is the opposite and is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE! I don't know why. You can use grep with standard expresions, just like $SEARCH. Regular expression get you so much more ... Start of Line, End of Line, user-defined patterns and ranges, etc. I suspect that if $SEARCH had regular expressions, a lot of posters here would be touting that as a powerful feature (which it is), rather than dismissing it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:24:36 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: HP should.... Message-ID: <-c2dnQT5D8m5QpbfRVn-uA@igs.net> 1) Relaunch Alpha 2) Hire/Steal back engineers to do so 3) Port everything high-end to Alpha 4) Dump Intel and get in bed with AMD 5) Advertise, Advertise, Advertise 6) Bring in new teams to market products like VMS and Tru64 and HP-UX. -- OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:26:53 -0500 From: Jf Mezei Subject: Re: HP should.... Message-ID: <420C09D0.795A5F42@teksavvy.com> John Smith wrote: > > 1) Relaunch Alpha Out of curiosity, if relaunch were to happen, would relaunching Alpha have any serious advantage over relaunching PaRisc ? > 4) Dump Intel and get in bed with AMD No need to "dump Intel". HP should simply have its own strategy instead of following what Microsoft and Intel. It doesn't mean that HP needs to stop buying from Intel if Intel has superior products. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:19:31 -0500 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: HP should.... Message-ID: John Smith wrote: > 1) Relaunch Alpha > 2) Hire/Steal back engineers to do so > 3) Port everything high-end to Alpha > 4) Dump Intel and get in bed with AMD > 5) Advertise, Advertise, Advertise > 6) Bring in new teams to market products like VMS and Tru64 and HP-UX. 1. No: that ceased to be a feasible option over 2 years ago, even if all the engineers could have been retrieved. You just can't add 2 years (almost 4, now) to *any* processor's schedule and have it remain a leader (just look at how Itanic fared: if McKinley had been released even as late as mid-2000, it would have been really exciting) - and with no work having been done on post-EV8 Alpha designs since 2001, no fast-pathing of their development could occur either 2. Some, but not for the purpose of (1). 3. No. 4. At least somewhat, though AMD probably couldn't meet HP's needs without help from Intel. 5. Yes. 6. Yes. 7. You forgot the minor matter of product development (or more to the point HP's lack of same over the past few years). Storage, OSs, ... Just as Alpha is no longer competitive, or even revivable, after too lengthy a period of neglect, so other HP core technologies are highly threatened. Carly may actually have succeeded in sinking HP beyond recovery, at least anything resembling the force that HP used to represent in the industry. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:09:25 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: HP should.... Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:19:31 -0500, Bill Todd wrote: > John Smith wrote: >> 1) Relaunch Alpha >> 2) Hire/Steal back engineers to do so >> 3) Port everything high-end to Alpha >> 4) Dump Intel and get in bed with AMD >> 5) Advertise, Advertise, Advertise >> 6) Bring in new teams to market products like VMS and Tru64 and HP-UX. > > 1. No: that ceased to be a feasible option over 2 years ago, even if > all the engineers could have been retrieved. You just can't add 2 years > (almost 4, now) to *any* processor's schedule and have it remain a > leader (just look at how Itanic fared: if McKinley had been released > even as late as mid-2000, it would have been really exciting) - and with > no work having been done on post-EV8 Alpha designs since 2001, no > fast-pathing of their development could occur either > 2. Some, but not for the purpose of (1). > 3. No. > 4. At least somewhat, though AMD probably couldn't meet HP's needs > without help from Intel. > 5. Yes. > 6. Yes. > > 7. You forgot the minor matter of product development (or more to the > point HP's lack of same over the past few years). Storage, OSs, ... > Just as Alpha is no longer competitive, or even revivable, after too > lengthy a period of neglect, so other HP core technologies are highly > threatened. > > Carly may actually have succeeded in sinking HP beyond recovery, at > least anything resembling the force that HP used to represent in the > industry. > > - bill Looking at it from the point of view of finding a vehicle to deliver VMS, that is reasonably competitive (doesn't have to be the fastest) and finding a partner to procure that vehicle who you believe will continue developing that vehicle and has the where-with-all to accomplish it, leads you to selecting two, three suppliers. You port VMS to the Power chip and Opteron/Pentium. The ongoing cost of sustaining Alpha is prohibitive, particularly since you can't amortise it over a large run. This also gives flexibility, as we used to have, by demanding second sources. The real value in the Digital component of HP is VMS, Alpha has lost all its value. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:59:23 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: HP should.... Message-ID: <420C1F79.C7E4286B@teksavvy.com> Tom Linden wrote: > The real > value in the Digital component of HP is VMS, Alpha has lost all its value. There is one aspect of Alpha: installed base and available software, much of which is no longer developped and thus not be available on Alpha's successor. Continuing the Alpha processor ratins that software whereas moving to a new platform requires VMS start from scratch with software availability. Note that this is also a reason HP-UX customers are still buying PaRisc based machines instead of that unwanted IA64 thing. But VMS is in a much worse shape than HP-UX in terms of application ecosystem. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:46:06 -0500 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: HP should.... Message-ID: Bill Todd wrote: > John Smith wrote: > >> 1) Relaunch Alpha >> 2) Hire/Steal back engineers to do so >> 3) Port everything high-end to Alpha >> 4) Dump Intel and get in bed with AMD >> 5) Advertise, Advertise, Advertise >> 6) Bring in new teams to market products like VMS and Tru64 and HP-UX. > > > 1. No: that ceased to be a feasible option over 2 years ago, even if > all the engineers could have been retrieved. You just can't add 2 years > (almost 4, now) to *any* processor's schedule and have it remain a > leader (just look at how Itanic fared: if McKinley had been released > even as late as mid-2000, it would have been really exciting) - and with > no work having been done on post-EV8 Alpha designs since 2001, no > fast-pathing of their development could occur either > 2. Some, but not for the purpose of (1). > 3. No. > 4. At least somewhat, though AMD probably couldn't meet HP's needs > without help from Intel. > 5. Yes. > 6. Yes. > > 7. You forgot the minor matter of product development (or more to the > point HP's lack of same over the past few years). Storage, OSs, ... > Just as Alpha is no longer competitive, or even revivable, after too > lengthy a period of neglect, so other HP core technologies are highly > threatened. > > Carly may actually have succeeded in sinking HP beyond recovery, at > least anything resembling the force that HP used to represent in the > industry. OK - it's not entirely fair to be so dismissive without coming up with a counter-proposal (unless there's just no hope at all, which is not yet clear). So here's my take (not that anyone in any position to act is likely to be listening to it): HP will never regain the proprietary hardware advantages that PA-RISC and Alpha gave it: as I noted above, far too much time has gone by for either architecture to regain a leadership position in the industry. EV7, for example, has roughly half the SPECint and SPECfp performance of the current industry leaders, and even if aggressively upgraded to EV79 would significantly trail what the competition has today, let alone what they'll have when such an upgrade could ship. EV8 could of course do better, but would still likely trail a bit by the time it could ship. The only way to regain a leadership position in processors would be to come up with something new (at least as new as Cell, for example - though it's not clear that Cell would do the job). And it's arguable that by the time something new could be developed (end of the decade at the earliest) a leadership position in processors may not count for that much: the industry is already having difficulty coming up with useful processor-specific things to do with the die area on its processor chips, and the 'memory wall' continues to dilute the value of higher processor performance in many applications. HP could still provide Alpha with the limited upgrades which *are* feasible, to support its remaining customer base (such as it may be). And in any event it should promise to sell Alphas (at something resembling reasonable prices) as long as customers wish to buy them. But that's a relatively short-term fix: Alpha's OSs need something more permanent in order to be perceived as long-term viable rather than on the way out. And of course that does nothing to address the HP-UX customer base, which (especially now) is likely considerably larger than Alpha's. Lousy decision though it was, by now depending on Itanic as the longer-term hardware platform for all these OSs may be a fait accompli. With its significant power reductions Montecito has become at least reasonable to consider for this purpose: not what things could have been, but perhaps the best that can be done as things now are. There remains the concern about just how committed Intel may be to future Itanic development, however: at a minimum, Itanic processor pricing seems likely to remain high and its performance no better than x86-64 equivalents over the next few years. The cheapest insurance (and with side-benefits as well) against problems here would be to port VMS and Tru64 to x86-64 (whether the latter is also ported to Itanic or not); this is not as viable an option for HP-UX, since it's a big-endian environment, so Itanic may be the only realistic answer there. Alternatives? 1. Plow a fair amount of money into temporarily extending the life of both Alpha and PA-RISC while developing a new processor to replace them both. But what will make that processor (developed at impressive cost, regardless of how good it might be) better than its market competition? Even Alpha had some difficulty staying convincingly ahead of x86 performance by the late '90s, for example - and by the time a new architecture could ship, it seems likely that existing ones will have incorporated most of the significant features it could boast of (since the percentage of die space dedicated to processor cores seems to be shrinking fast, incorporating everything, including the kitchen sink, into them becomes increasingly easy). 2. Port the OSs somewhere else. This might be fairly easy for VMS and even Tru64, though perhaps harder for HP-UX (since Itanic was designed with its needs in mind). POWER is certainly impressive, but owned by a direct competitor. x86-64 is attractive, but would still entail porting expenses and delays (Itanic could help the OSs ride out the delay, or continuations of Alpha and PA-RISC could - but, as noted above, there's also the endian question for HP-UX). SPARC is also competitor-related, and while it may be a good platform for vendors who are already on it it isn't as attractive for new vendors to move to. Partnering with AMD would be contrarian and exciting, but given the direction Intel seems to be moving (in terms of incorporating significant elements of the system architecture into the chips using at least part of the expertise that the Alpha team brought with them, come 2007 or so) might not offer any real advantage over Intel's 2007 and later x86 products (i.e., I think that working with *both* Intel and AMD and using the best each has to offer makes sense). 3. Get out of the proprietary OS market. That was the Carly & Curly vision, and they managed to sabotage the viability of the other options pretty thoroughly. But I submit that this approach effectively cedes enterprise business almost entirely (save possibly for storage and, if HP managed to execute a full about-face in its attitudes toward quality, some services): HP still has major strengths in system expertise that it could leverage profitably, and I think it should do so. OK: so HP should return to aggressively pursuing its proprietary advantages in system hardware and OSs (though without abandoning Linux, and even supplying and supporting Windows where that makes sense). It should port VMS to x86-64 both as insurance and to increase its exposure and applicability. It should port Tru64 to *both* Itanic and x86-64 for the same reasons, plus as clear evidence of its change in direction. It should devote significant resources not only to marketing but to developing its proprietary OSs, including reasonable efforts at convergence - again, both for competitive reasons and to provide clear evidence of its new direction. Part of this should include significant innovation at the file-system level (as Sun has done with its new ZFS file system) - and not only because that's my primary area of personal interest. It should extend its OS expertise into PC systems, as DEC at least started to do - e.g., make clustering PCs something other than a joke, and extend the file-system work I mentioned above to include them. The company that controls the data controls the world, which is one reason why Microsoft is shooting for more lock-in with its new file system for Longhorn (not that those shots have necessarily come close to the target yet): while any PC file system extensions HP might create could (and probably should) be available for anyone to use, the integration with HP's higher-end systems would constitute a significant proprietary advantage. It should revitalize its storage R&D efforts, since between the DECpaq and original HP storage groups it had much of the cream of the industry and could get at least some of it involved again if they could be convinced it was serious. It should get its service organization into shape rather than seeing just how much of its work can be accomplished (at least sort-of) via satellite links to India. It should do with its PC division what IBM used to: partner intelligently, ship a quality product, and provide one-stop shopping (and service) as a convenience at prices just high enough to make a modest profit, rather than try to compete tooth and nail with Dell and the Asian white-box makers. If HP actually became an exciting company again the industry would be excited (and receptive) too, because it really wants a *credible* alternative to IBM and there's no one around providing one (though if HP fails to, Sun may pick up that mantle by default). - bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:13:27 -0500 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: HP should.... Message-ID: <110obmv65roca98@corp.supernews.com> Bill Todd wrote: > John Smith wrote: > >> 1) Relaunch Alpha >> 2) Hire/Steal back engineers to do so >> 3) Port everything high-end to Alpha >> 4) Dump Intel and get in bed with AMD >> 5) Advertise, Advertise, Advertise >> 6) Bring in new teams to market products like VMS and Tru64 and HP-UX. > > > 1. No: that ceased to be a feasible option over 2 years ago, even if > all the engineers could have been retrieved. You just can't add 2 years > (almost 4, now) to *any* processor's schedule and have it remain a > leader (just look at how Itanic fared: if McKinley had been released > even as late as mid-2000, it would have been really exciting) - and with > no work having been done on post-EV8 Alpha designs since 2001, no > fast-pathing of their development could occur either I'd dispute that, from a certain perspective. If by relaunch one would mean jump back into it at the point it was in 2001, no, that wouldn't be so good due to lost time. EV8's time is now and the near future, and EV8 doesn't exist, and probably couldn't exist in that time frame. Not that that would be a total dog since EV7 even now is still a viable platform for today's users. As part of a solution, evolving EV7 a bit would help with business today. But, you're selling to the already captive audience for the most part. Acquiring new customers when the competition is Power5+ with a 3+ year lead would be rather tough, from a performance perspective. VMS and T64 would possibly be some advantage. But you have to ask, where are the T64 engineers? Saying that getting back into the CPU arena is not feasible is the same as saying that all the possible CPU manufacturers already exist, and someone new, with adequate talent and capitol couldn't become a player. That I won't believe. What would be required would be spending some time to come up with a product in say 3-4 years which would be competitive with where Power will be in 3-4 years, and where Alpha 'could' have possibly been in 3-4 years. The list of possibilities isn't small. One could take a look at the 'cell' concept that IBM, Sony, and Toshiba just announced. One could consider using Power. The real issue is what market would you be aiming at? If it's low volume, high cost, I think that's a dead end. Low volume, low cost is one possibility. The best would be high volume, low cost. What that is is the real question. What I vaguely remember about the research I think was called EV10 was along those lines. A large number of low cost processors coupled together to give great performance. Look at the Linux 'clusters' we've read about with hundreds or thousands of processors. Lots of compute cycles, but not coupled together very well. The real key point Bill makes is "no work having been done on post-EV8 Alpha designs since 2001". Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:59:58 -0500 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: HP should.... Message-ID: Dave Froble wrote: ... > Saying that getting back into the CPU arena is not feasible is the same > as saying that all the possible CPU manufacturers already exist, and > someone new, with adequate talent and capitol couldn't become a player. No, it is not: it's saying (in part) that HP has much shorter-term problems which it must solve than could be addressed by a new architecture, else it wouldn't have anything viable left to run on said architecture when it finally appeared. Plus the minor point that any such new architecture has no reason to be any better, after all the money spent to develop it, than some existing one - unless it also incorporates some significantly better idea than existing architectures contain. > That I won't believe. People usually believe what they want to believe. That has little relevance to reality, unless they can convince large numbers of other people to share their vision or delusion (as the case may be). What would be required would be spending some > time to come up with a product in say 3-4 years which would be > competitive with where Power will be in 3-4 years, and where Alpha > 'could' have possibly been in 3-4 years. What part of the fact that doing something like that, *if* you succeeded at all, would take more like 5 - 6 years is difficult for you to comprehend? The Alpha team hit the ground running (as a coherent existing development group, no less) at Intel in mid-2001, and - had Tukwila not been canceled - would have taken at least 5.5 years to get it to market. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:07:38 -0500 From: John Doe Subject: Re: HP should.... Message-ID: <420C4B8D.A54E1C5@doe.org> Dave Froble wrote: > I'd dispute that, from a certain perspective. If by relaunch one would > mean jump back into it at the point it was in 2001, no, that wouldn't be > so good due to lost time. EV8's time is now and the near future, and > EV8 doesn't exist, and probably couldn't exist in that time frame. I used to have the DEC brainwash and think that Alpha was decades ahead of its time. But over time, I realised that what this was all about was speed to market. Competitors had features similar to Alpha, but delivered later. If you were to reconstitute an Alpha team today, they wouldn't start where they last left off. They'd start a new project today with features that Intel, IBM and Sun are starting to work on too. And they'd benefit from other developments done while they were "away". They may not be able to copy what IBM did to Power, but they'd get some inspiration of what works and what doesn't. If the Alpha instruction set does allow for greater speeds and easier to develop and faster to market, then the newly reconstituted team would be able to move to the next generation in time to regain its edge within a few years. Lets take an extreme case: lets say they were to revive the VAX chip. Engineers wouldn't have to go though every iteration that they would have gone though since 1996. They'd develop a twin core VAX with shared cache with a 90nm process and instantly bring the VAX into the 21st century in one generation. copying :-) If the Alpha team are able to deliver to market faster, then within a couple of years Alpha would regain its edge. Meanwhile it could have just simple speed bumps. One has to look at the big picture now. IBM is marginalizing the wintel market and pushing Power to lower end. Should HP do the same with Alpha, it would relegate wintel to cheap commodity desktops and shut Windows out of true enterprise, leaving Dell with an essential monopoly (which would probably result in rise in wintel server prices due to less competition). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:14:35 -0500 From: John Doe Subject: Re: HP should.... Message-ID: <420C4D2D.FD873A82@doe.org> Bill Todd wrote: > existing development group, no less) at Intel in mid-2001, and - had > Tukwila not been canceled - would have taken at least 5.5 years to get > it to market. Working with a dog takes longer. Now, even if it took 5.5 years to get a new up-to-date Alpha to the market, they could still do process shrinks of EV7 and do some work at the system level to increase performance. Consider what it has taken 4.5 years between murder of Alpha and first commercial version of VMS on that IA64 thing. And there isn't much software available. So, if you're going to develop a new platform starting on 2006 when HP announces the widthdrawal of IA64, it would take about 4 years to get VMS to restart again. If you announce rebirth of Alpha, you are going to take about as much time but meanwhile, you inherit the complete software ecosystem which can grow during thsoe year sbecause VMS is already available on Alpha, so is Linux. And consider SGI going Alpha, it would allow SGI to migrate immediatly to Alpha since Alpha already exists. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:40:07 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: HP's Carly Fiorina fired Message-ID: <420BE2C4.A66490C4@teksavvy.com> Michael Unger wrote: > > May I suggest Terry Shannon for President & CEO, [...] > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > He seems to be rather biased with respect to Itanic ... No. He is biased towards the folks who give him information because without those sources, he woudln't be able to produce the newsletters/presentations that keep him alive. Very sikilar to the USA networks who don't dare question the information that is fed to them by the white house for fear of losing that source of information. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:35:32 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: HP's Carly Fiorina fired Message-ID: <420C35FC.7AF3D631@teksavvy.com> Very good article from Mike Kenellos at: http://news.com.com/Fiorinas+fuzzy+vision/2010-1071_3-5569685.html?tag=st.prev I find it interesting to see how the media portray Fiorina. You can really see those that just cover the surface, and those that have more in depth knowledge. This article shows much more in depth knowledge than the average report. BTW Seems John Smith was right about the hairdresser. And Capellas is still listed as a front runner. For christ's sake. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 13:58:22 -0500 From: "Peter Weaver" Subject: Re: Intrusion attempts Message-ID: <371p6gF55pr5oU1@individual.net> Syltrem wrote: >... > Is there any way to make a selection only for the address > [165.110.40.1] when using the ANALYZE/AUDIT command? > Now I use /since and /before around the time intrusion record were > deleted by the procedure, but it is not exact. > Examples of the variations of the Terminal name string : > Terminal name: _VTA3660, [166.110.40.1] > Terminal name: VTA3662, _NTY4632, [166.110.40.1] > Terminal name: VTA1471, _NTY1613, [166.110.40.1] > Terminal name: _VTA3664, [166.110.40.1] >... /SELECT=TERMINAL=*166.110.40.1* should work for you. Have you considered that maybe the device (or one of the handhelds that plug into it) is babbling and sending out garbage from time to time to cause the login attempts? -- Peter Weaver Weaver Consulting Services Inc. Canadian VAR for CHARON-VAX www.weaverconsulting.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:26:38 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Message-ID: <420BDF9C.15823C25@teksavvy.com> Kenneth Farmer wrote: > OK, so the World Cup would be another great opportunity to get the word out. However, I am not certain that the World Cup is similar to Superbowl. I think that there are many broadcasters involved for each country it is seen. A bit like the olympics. So viewership is divided and no broadcaster gets a huge concentration of viewers even though the total number of viewers may dwarf the USA events. So while the Superbowl or the so called "world-cup" may be very USA centric, they still concentrate a lot of viewer to a single network. So a single ad purchased from one network will reach a lot more viewers in Superbowl than buying a single ad from one network airing World Cup. The thing about Superbowl is that it isn't so much a sporting event, it is an advertising event. It is a competition for the best ads. The ads are actually watched, so they have great potential. And people talk about the ads for days after the event. (Heck, GoDaddy,.com got its second ads pulled at the last minute because the Football league decided it was too racy (it was a spoof on last year's Janet Jackson event). They didn't even have time to call GoDaddy to advise of their decision. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:22:29 -0500 From: "DAVID TURNER" Subject: Re: Loads of DS10L 466 in stock for $250 Message-ID: <110nu5pe30e0df9@news.supernews.com> we received a cheque stating "no phone calls" Enough said David -- Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404 Tel: 912 4476622 Fax: 912 201 0402 Email: dbturner@icusc.com "Marty Kuhrt" wrote in message news:e0ItEfIjstju@eisner.encompasserve.org... > In article <3MAXX9iUUYzT@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > > In article , Chris Sharman writes: > >> David Turner, Island Computers US Corp wrote: > >> > >>> Sent an email to you Chris - I need a configuration request. > >>> Then I can quote > >> > >> Thanks for the quote - it seems spamfilters are now having to be so > >> aggressive that legitimate email struggles to get through when not > >> whitelisted. I'm the same - the filters are good, but the volume of > >> 'maybe spam' is now so great that I miss real mail sometimes. > > > > Email is your only choice - we tried to order by mail from Island > > based on their web site. FIVE WEEKS later (after repeated followups > > when no confirmation was received) they rejected our order, saying > > they could not fill it (but giving no details) indicating they will > > not deal by mail. > > I've ordered by phone without problem in the past. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 2005 21:18:21 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Loads of DS10L 466 in stock for $250 Message-ID: In article <110nu5pe30e0df9@news.supernews.com>, "DAVID TURNER" writes: > we received a cheque stating "no phone calls" ...along with the specified form from your web site for the goods offered there. That page (http://islandco.com/ds10l_custom_system.html) says: "Pricing below is current and accurate." and "Print out this page for your records and use as an attachment for your order" > Enough said The implication being that you are incapable of writing a letter explaining your problem. The notion that it took _FIVE_WEEKS_ for you to attach a sticky note and say you were rejecting the order confirms that literacy gap. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:38:33 -0500 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: OpenVMS V8.2 (online) Communications Seminar Message-ID: <110nh1ve50hs130@corp.supernews.com> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > I'd like a module on how to obtain a rack mount kit and bezel. ;) Ok, enough. 1) Make some measurements. 2) Go to your local Home Depot, Lowes, hardware store, whatever. 3) Purchase some light weight steel angle and some bolts, nuts, and washers. 4) Go back to the den and build side rails that the system can sit on. 5) Depending upon local earthquake conditions, you might also bolt the system to the angles. A lot cheaper than $75, a break from the keyboard, and some self sufficiency satisfaction. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:31:13 -0500 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" Subject: Re: OpenVMS V8.2 (online) Communications Seminar Message-ID: <420B8C51.4993.1AB01801@localhost> On 10 Feb 2005 at 15:38, Dave Froble wrote: > 3) Purchase some light weight steel angle and some bolts, nuts, and > washers. You must have not seen a rx2600. Make those heavy-weight steel angles... --Stan Quayle Quayle Consulting Inc. ---------- Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ +1 614-868-1363 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:56:22 -0500 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: OpenVMS V8.2 (online) Communications Seminar Message-ID: <110o05d1eoagp42@corp.supernews.com> Stanley F. Quayle wrote: > On 10 Feb 2005 at 15:38, Dave Froble wrote: > >>3) Purchase some light weight steel angle and some bolts, nuts, and >>washers. > > > You must have not seen a rx2600. Make those heavy-weight steel > angles... Steel is very strong. Most non-engineers, and even some engineers, go overboard because something might 'look' flimsy. For example, an AN4 aircraft bolt, (good alloy, 1/4 inch) has a tensil strength of (from memory) over 100,000 lbs. (Ok, maybe I should go and re-read the book, but they are very strong.) A 3/32 inch stainless cable is good for 900 lbs. Even mild steel, which is what I was refering to, at say, 12 gauge, is very strong. Take a look at one of the cabinets DEC built in the 1980s. You'll see that the thickness of the metal isn't very much. I doubt that RX2600 (no, I haven't seen one) would outweigh 3 or 4 RA90 disk drives, nor produce as much stress as when those things are turning. Dave ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 2005 18:54:37 -0600 From: kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) Subject: Re: OpenVMS V8.2 (online) Communications Seminar Message-ID: In article <110nh1ve50hs130@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble writes: > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> I'd like a module on how to obtain a rack mount kit and bezel. ;) > > Ok, enough. > > 1) Make some measurements. > 2) Go to your local Home Depot, Lowes, hardware store, whatever. > 3) Purchase some light weight steel angle and some bolts, nuts, and washers. > 4) Go back to the den and build side rails that the system can sit on. > 5) Depending upon local earthquake conditions, you might also bolt the > system to the angles. > > A lot cheaper than $75, a break from the keyboard, and some self > sufficiency satisfaction. Ditto. I couldn't find a rack mount kit for my DS10L (similar problems flailing through hpland for info). Finally I got a rack mountable shelf and did it myself. Total cost; nothing, I got it from the recycle pile at work. Time saved not bashing my head against the wall that is hp sales/ordering; priceless! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:42:54 GMT From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) Subject: RE: So how big a parachute did she have? Message-ID: <00A3F2F6.80CD2509@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bob Koehler [mailto:koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org]=20 >> Sent: February 10, 2005 8:32 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: So how big a parachute did she have? >>=20 >> In article=20 >> <1107991887.590340.274150@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,=20 >> "mas" writes: >> > $21 million. Made for the rest of her life. >> >=20 >> > Even she would have trouble spending that on hairdos and such ;-). >>=20 >> Now she can affor to work for the government. Maybe Bush will >> ask her to work on the US-Canadian merger those up north=20 >> have feared >> for so long. >>=20 > >Bob, > >Its all part of our plan to make the US the 11th province of Canada. >Course, teaching Texans to speak French might be a tad difficult, but I >am sure they will see the value in this vision. > >:-) There's a handy supply of French speakers right next door in Louisiana. That could work out. -- Alan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:35:08 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: So how big a parachute did she have? Message-ID: <420BE199.A452A56B@teksavvy.com> John Smith wrote: > But I digress.... > I wonder if she cut a deal to continue using the Gulfstream G-V to go on job > interviews? Most likely. But I woudl think it would be a on a "plane available" basis with the real board/company having priority, and she may have to share a ride with other people. Was it the last GE Ceo who had gotten continued access to corporate jets for life ? This backfired because he had gotten so much out of his retirement package. (Same with Grasso at NYSE). So I suspect Carly's package will be more reasonable. But corporate jet for first 6 months, at least until the new permanent CEO is found would be reasonable. Does anyone know if she is expected to continue to work for HP on a consultative basis to ensure proper transition, or was she really sacked ASAP ? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:44:22 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: So how big a parachute did she have? Message-ID: <420BE3C3.43D668B9@teksavvy.com> Bob Koehler wrote: > > Its all part of our plan to make the US the 11th province of Canada. > > Course, teaching Texans to speak French might be a tad difficult, but I > > am sure they will see the value in this vision. > > > > How do you spell nucular in French? We don't use proprietary USA technology, we use industry standard nuclear reactors. The USA is mad at Iran because it got open sourced nuclear technology instead of buying the USA proprietary Nucular (tm) systems. And in french, it is Nucléaire ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:41:34 +0000 From: Elliott Roper Subject: Re: So how big a parachute did she have? Message-ID: <100220052241345582%nospam@yrl.co.uk> In article <1Y787Ny45YXI@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article > , > "Main, Kerry" writes: > > > > Bob, > > > > Its all part of our plan to make the US the 11th province of Canada. > > Course, teaching Texans to speak French might be a tad difficult, but I > > am sure they will see the value in this vision. > > > > How do you spell nucular in French? What's a coffee stained LK401-AA worth on e-Bay? -- I thought I would be the last on earth to mung my e-mail address. fsnospam$elliott$$ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:21:47 -0500 From: Brian Hechinger Subject: Re: VAX 4000 m500A problem Message-ID: <20050210232147.GV29@ford.4amlunch.net> On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 08:00:41AM +0000, Jay Maynard wrote: > >> (And should I be pestering the guys on comp.os.vms, instead?) > > Probably. None of the VAX 4000 line is 20 years old yet. Soon > > enough, I guess. some of the later model ones aren't even close. ;) -brian -- "Now you know why I got the everliving hell OUT of Windows administration. Knowing it doesn't make it any easier. It's just broken-as-designed." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:38:48 -0500 From: Howard Shubs Subject: Re: VAX 4000 m500A problem Message-ID: In article <-YCdnSQzb4pVwpbfRVn-sg@rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > Howard Shubs wrote: > >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > >> Why don't you wait until you get everything you need? Then > >> pick the word you used the most often. > > > >I should name a VAX "THE"? > > > That's not the most common adjective I used. Barb, you said "word", not adjective. :-D -- Nobody knows Particle Man. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:49:19 -0700 From: GreyCloud Subject: Re: VICTORY !!! Carly fired, new hope for VMS ? Message-ID: <420BBABF.1DECEC7C@mist.com> bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > > I emailed Carly alot and she actually replied to > several of my emails, and she actually knew > what vms was and at least supported it ... if > cappelas or some other brain dead ceo gets in > then it could get worse and then we all will be > hoping some else buys it ... Lets hope that Gates doesn't. -- "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:50:07 -0500 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: VICTORY !!! Carly fired, new hope for VMS ? Message-ID: <110nhnlif39tl84@corp.supernews.com> GreyCloud wrote: > bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > >>I emailed Carly alot and she actually replied to >>several of my emails, and she actually knew >>what vms was and at least supported it ... if >>cappelas or some other brain dead ceo gets in >>then it could get worse and then we all will be >>hoping some else buys it ... > > > Lets hope that Gates doesn't. > Palmer tried to give it to Gates, but Gates apparently didn't want it. (I'm refering to the technology transfer, DLM and such.) Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:08:29 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Why aren't more universities doing this? Message-ID: <420BDB5B.19557DAA@teksavvy.com> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > about teaching students C. As a matter of fact, we don't have any > course that teaches any language as it's primary concern. Language > is unimportant. What is important and what we teach are programming > concepts. It depends on what you are teaching. If you are teaching computer science with the graduates going to work on building an operating system or compilers, then I'd say that learning multiple languages is very important. If you're going to spit out windows weenies who will get jobs administering windows systems, then your policy is correct. How can you judge a language if you can't compare it with others ? When PSION released its Series 5 machine based on what is now known as Symbian OS, it was all based on C++. I was told by people who should have known that no C compiler could generate the object oriented machine instructions user by the StrongArm processor of that machine. They had no real concept of what a compiler really did behind the scenes and really thought that C++ was in a world of its own and that it was absolutely impossible to generate call frames in C that would be able to access the machines "system services library". And that is why I feel very strongly about teaching one assembler language to computer science students on top of at least 2 higher level languages. And the way you teach those higher level lnguages should also include teaching students how to learn new languages on their own. And if you have a good understanding on what a compiler really does, then learning a new language is much easier. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:08:58 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Why aren't more universities doing this? Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:52:11 -0500, John Smith wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article , >> "Tom Linden" writes: >>> On 10 Feb 2005 14:23:45 GMT, Bill Gunshannon >>> wrote: >>> >>>> As for PL/1, it is not readily available on the majority of machines >>>> the students work with so they are very unlikely to become familiar >>>> enough with it to actually use it. >>> >>> It is available on Windows, AIX, Solaris, HP-UX, Linux/x86, Tru64 >>> and VMS, The Windows version from IBM is about $180, >> >> That works out to about $5000 for one lab. Add onto that another >> $3000 for faculty machines. And what exactly do I use to justify >> that kind of spending? I barely have enough budget to keep up to >> date with the hard and software we have to run. Contrary to popular >> belief, with the exception of the MIT's, CMU's and UCB's, universities >> are not overflowing with money. >> >>> Don't know what Liant >>> charges, >> >> I don't either, but it wouldn't much matter as it is bound to be more >> than I can justify. > > > Kermit's PC VT emulation to the VAX is all you'd need....correct, Tom? > PuTTY is free and that is all you need:-) > > > -- > > OpenVMS - The classics never go out of style. > > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2005.083 ************************