INFO-VAX Tue, 08 Feb 2005 Volume 2005 : Issue 77 Contents: Re: BACKUP/IMAGE questions Re: BACKUP/IMAGE questions Re: BACKUP/IMAGE questions Re: DECW$SESSION Limits... won't start new tasks Re: DVE and maximum file count Re: DVE and maximum file count Elephants can dance Re: FBI gets hacked - should have been on OpenVMS! Fonts used by an application ? Re: HP rx2600 rack mount conversion Re: HP rx2600 rack mount conversion RE: HP rx2600 rack mount conversion RE: HP rx2600 rack mount conversion IBM "Cell" chip - was Re: Curly soon to be out of a job Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Itanium In the Press Re: Itanium In the Press Re: Lexical to get ACL Re: Lexical to get ACL Re: Lexical to get ACL Re: Lexical to get ACL Re: Lexical to get ACL new version of SYMBOL on my site OpenVMS Job opportunity in Southern California Re: REBOOT or SHUTDOWN, how to tell in SYSSHUTDWN.COMj Re: REBOOT or SHUTDOWN, how to tell in SYSSHUTDWN.COMj setting up a LAT forward port Re: setting up a LAT forward port Re: Setup of LN05 Laser on VMS v5.1 without DCPS Simple copy question (RMS-E-FEX) Re: Simple copy question (RMS-E-FEX) Re: Simple copy question (RMS-E-FEX) Re: Simple copy question (RMS-E-FEX) Why aren't more universities doing this? Re: Why aren't more universities doing this? Re: Why aren't more universities doing this? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Feb 2005 10:46:49 -0800 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: BACKUP/IMAGE questions Message-ID: <1107802009.309809.245690@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Beach Runner wrote: > You might want to pre-init the drive with a larger indexf.sys > and then do an image restore/noinit. It's a good idea to pre-allocate > additional size for indexf.sys, especially if you're going to a bigger > drive. > > Call Colorado for details. Good point! You may want to consider giving values for some or all of the following INITIALIZE qualifiers: /HEADERS /MAXIMUM_FILES /CLUSTER_SIZE. /HEADERS=n makes INDEXF.SYS large enough for n file headers initially. No expansion of INDEXF.SYS will be needed until you exceed n file headers. /MAXIMUM_FILES=m determines the size of the header bitmap in INDEXF.SYS and m becomes the largest number of file headers you can ever have on the disk without reinitializing. Be sure not to make this too small!!! /CLUSTER_SIZE determines the cluster size. Cluster size and maximum_files are related. See HELP INIT for more info on that. [...] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 14:56:46 -0500 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: BACKUP/IMAGE questions Message-ID: <110fhg5tgs70e04@corp.supernews.com> tadamsmar@yahoo.com wrote: > I am replacing disks on a system with a broken > tape drive. > > The new disk is twice the capacity of the old. > 1 gig to 2 gig, I think. These are rather small disks, today. No issues. > Is there any problem with using BACKUP/IMAGE > for a disk to disk copy in this situation? You don't mention whether it's a system disk. Assuming that you're copying a system disk, you can do it while the system is running, or, if you have the drive and CD, running from the distribution media. If you do it while the system is running, be sure that no activity is taking place on the system, no users, no batch jobs, etc, and even shuting down the queue stuff won't hurt, but with no activity, shouldn't make a difference. Shutting down networking could also be done. Should you wish different/better clustersize and file header pre-allocation, you can first INITIALIZE the target disk: INIT /SYSTEM /HEADER=?? /CLUSTERSIZE=?? .MAXIMUM_FILES=?? DISK2: DISK2 Note, for a 2 GB disk, I'd just use a clustersize of 1. A bit more overhead, but no wasted blocks. If you do this, and the source disk has a larger clustersize, the files will copy with the unused blocks. To avoid this, use the /TRUNCATE switch on the target disk. One thing to consider is whether you have any files marked NOBACKUP on the source disk. The page, swap, and dump files are normally setup this way, but they don't contain any relavent data. If you have other files, with relavent data, then to copy the data use /IGNORE=NOBACKUP. It's been a while, but I think that this might cause a copy of the page, swap, and dupm files, a useless exercise. An alternative would be to find any other files marked NOBACKUP and remove that status before copying the disk. The following may wrap. BACKUP /IMAGE /NOINIT /NOALIAS /IGNORE=(INTERLOCK,NOBACKUP,LABEL) /VERIFY DISK1: DISK2: /TRUNCATE > Should I use /NOALIAS? For a system disk, yes. > There is something in HELP BACKUP/IMAGE about > preservation of the cluster factor. Is that > a problem in this situation, going to a > larger disk. If you don't use the /NOINIT switch, the target disk will be re-initialized to match the source disk. You may or may not desire this. > Can I copy from the live system disk using > BACKUP/IMAGE? If not, I can boot off the > CD. > Either, as long as nothing is running on the system. If you can shut it down and boot from the CD, that is the approved method. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 20:41:11 GMT From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: BACKUP/IMAGE questions Message-ID: In article <1107781228.898368.45180@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, tadamsmar@yahoo.com writes: :Is there any problem with using BACKUP/IMAGE :for a disk to disk copy in this situation? From a running system, use the command: INITIALIZE/HEADERS=x/MAXIMUM_FILES=y/SYSTEM/CLUSTER=n to: label Then boot standalone BACKUP (VAX) or the distribution CD-ROM (recent VAX, or Alpha V6.1 and later), or the distribution DVD-ROM (I64) and use the command BACKUP/IMAGE/VERIFY/NOINITIALIZE from: to: You can use the INITIALIZE command from the bootable environment, but not from standalone BACKUP. :Should I use /NOALIAS? /NOALIAS saves space in savesets, and should generally be used -- so long as you understand you must request file-level restorations from the primary entry. /IMAGE restorations will restore the correct file structures regardless of the /[NO]ALIAS setting. You will want to have the current ECOs here, of course, for whatever OpenVMS version is involved. :There is something in HELP BACKUP/IMAGE about :preservation of the cluster factor. Is that :a problem in this situation, going to a :larger disk. Could be. Bigger problem (no pun intended) is reserving enough room on the bigger disk for files and headers. :Can I copy from the live system disk using BACKUP/IMAGE? If you are asking the question, I would tend to recommend against it -- you may/will have to rebuild parts of files if you do use this technique. See the /IGNORE=INTERLOCK discussion in the FAQ for a discussion of the "fun". If not, I can boot off the CD. As you should. There is a description of the sequence used for a full BACKUP/IMAGE available in the OpenVMS upgrade manual and/or in the system manager's manual, and -- probably best -- there are step-by-step sequences and command examples in the BACKUP manual. If this is a VAXstation 3100 series or certain of the oldest members of the MicroVAX 3100 series, please see the system disk limits that are referenced in the OpenVMS FAQ. ---------------------------- #include ----------------------------- For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq --------------------------- pure personal opinion --------------------------- Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman OpenVMS Engineering hoff[at]hp.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 16:33:24 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: DECW$SESSION Limits... won't start new tasks Message-ID: <1107811318.703e2e4215663420032478b8107e3d78@teranews> martinkirby12@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > However, I am unclear of the sequence that leads to your problem. You > create a sub-process, the sub-process ends, then you can't create > another sub-process? Between the end and next start do you do anything > else in the session manager? I had one or two application set to run as a subprocess instead of detached. At one point, starting one would result it it being "pending" in the Work in Porgress panel, UNTIL I quite another one , at which point the pending one would start. But eventually, everything became pending, except for apps that were already declared as detached. (one couldn't even get to the "..." config for a specific app to declare it as "detached". At that point, fileview still worked fine, since it seems to run as part of the session manager process. I could see decw$session's working, its working set in increasing etc. This session lasted for over 85 days. However, since this is on VAX, does it really matter if I find a bug or provide you with better description of what causes the memory leak ? Are you guy still allowed to provide updates to it ? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 15:00:46 -0600 From: Chris Scheers Subject: Re: DVE and maximum file count Message-ID: <4207D6FE.2020903@applied-synergy.com> Ed Wilts wrote: > The files are typically nice and small - many of them are 1-4 blocks > with an average size of about 20 on one of my bigger disks. > > I've been aware of Glen's pseudo-disk hacks for many years (it's been > what, at least 10 years since it first came out?) but that kind of > driver hack isn't going to land on our production servers here (no > offense to Glen is to be taken!). For your purposes, would a bound volume work better? When you bind another drive to the volume, you get another block of file headers. Depending on your disk system, it can also help balance load by spreading access over spindles. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc. Voice: 817-237-3360 Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com Fax: 817-237-3074 ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 2005 18:36:23 -0600 From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) Subject: Re: DVE and maximum file count Message-ID: In article <1107789227.568952.100910@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "Ed Wilts" writes: > The files are typically nice and small - many of them are 1-4 blocks > with an average size of about 20 on one of my bigger disks. > > I've been aware of Glen's pseudo-disk hacks for many years (it's been > what, at least 10 years since it first came out?) but that kind of > driver hack isn't going to land on our production servers here (no > offense to Glen is to be taken!). > Went back and forth trying to see if you had specified number of files. From Alan Feldman's explanation: http://tinyurl.com/6hkwa > > Error count 0 Operations completed 4092 > Owner process "" Owner UIC [SYSTEM] > Owner process ID 00000000 Dev Prot S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G:R,W > Reference count 1 Default buffer size 512 > Total blocks 71132000 Sectors per track 254 > Total cylinders 14003 Tracks per cylinder 20 > Host name "LUMINA" Host type, AlphaServerDS20 > Allocation class 5 > > Volume label "DATA4" Relative volume number 0 > Cluster size 1 Transaction count 1 > Free blocks 2710889 Maximum files allowed 16711679 That 71 million block disk has 16.7 mill max files allowed. Is your application worse than that? Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 17:18:33 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Elephants can dance Message-ID: <1107814031.c1087ac192bb7252d0a23c867047c6e6@teranews> Just (finally) read Lou Gerstner's "Who says Elephants can't dance" book. It was written circa 2002. (so Gerstner was fully aware of what was going on betwene HP and Compaq). Gerstner got in IBM in April 1993. In page 221 of the paperback, there is a most interesting section on takeovers. "We need to grow, so let's go acquire somebody" .... "This is a contagious disease that infects too many executives. When given a choice of working hard to fix a base business or, instead, completing a glamorous acquisition and crowing about its promise on the financial TV stations, too many executives opt for the latter." "A partial list of companies that were propopsed as acquisition candidates include: MCI, Nortel, Compaq, SGI and Novell <...> Investment bankers with thick blue books were alwasy ready to describe a yellow brick road leading to the wonderful city of Oz. NOT ONE OF THESE DEALS WOULD HAVE WORKED. "I could tell a lot of investment-banker stories, but perhaps the one that stands out in my mind the most was the proposal from one bank that IBM acquire Compaq Computer." Gertsner then goes on showing how the investment bankers showed glowing success for IBM buying Compaq, but when Gertner looks into the fine print, he realised that such a transaction would wipe out 5 years of IBM profits (roughly $50 billion) and IBM would show huge losses during that period. When the banker was questioned the response was "Oh, investors would all see right through this, it woudln't matter". ------ What this tells me is that Capellas had been actively looking for a buyer. There is no specific time mentioned for this story. But it does show that it wasn't people interested in buying Compaq, it was Compaq hiring bankers to find anyone gullibe enough to buy it. The timing of bank pitching Compaq to IBM would be most interesting. Alpha had no value to HP. But would have had value to IBM. (perhaps not the chip itself, but the engineers and the intellectual property). Perhaps Curly didn't kill alpha because it may have been of value to some suitors such as IBM, but when time ran out and HP became the chosen suitor, then Curly killed Alpha and donated it to Intel. ------------------------------ Date: 07 Feb 2005 14:01:52 -0500 From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: FBI gets hacked - should have been on OpenVMS! Message-ID: "Jack Peacock" writes: > "John S." wrote in message > news:edydnQLRmNAo2ZnfRVn-qw@comcast.com... >> Photos of a DEC system used by the FBI >> http://www.vistadome.com/fbi.html > I understand there's a budget request before Congress to upgrade that > particular machine to one of the new PDP-20 systems (aren't bigger numbers > better?). Even now FBI field offices are scouring museums all over the US > in search of bidders... There was, of course, no such machine designation from DEC. The DECSYSTEM-20, like the DECsystem-10, was based on the PDP-10 processor architecture. -- Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon | news@alderson.users.panix.com | \ / campaign against | "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." | x HTML mail and | --Death, of the Endless | / \ postings | ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 00:34:44 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Fonts used by an application ? Message-ID: <1107840169.4330e4d200a39ae8a39c3b13c757ab46@teranews> I am trying to figure out exactly which font TPU uses for its decwindows version, in particular the font which displays control characters. I've looked inside the tpu$motif_shr.exe image, the UID, UIL and .DAT files and found no valid font name. Where else could the font names be hidden ? Since TPU clearly changes the font used in the text display to have control characters "displayed", shouldn't some file contain the name of the font it uses to display those special characters ? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 20:55:50 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: HP rx2600 rack mount conversion Message-ID: <00A3F0B5.F5A09CF1@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "FredK" writes: > >Go to hp.com and click on servers. Then type in A6939A in the "search" box. >Then click on the product overview. It shows that the part is $75 and ships >in >2-3 weeks (it gave me a ship estimate of 2/28/05). THANKS*e+06 Fred. I'm almost there but the [Add to Cart>>] button doesn't work. Now I only need to figure out why HP doesn't want people to buy shit unless it's printer supplies (yes, strangely enough, the JavaScript for the image link to HP printing supplies works but the JavaScript for [Add to Cart>>] image link does not). -- http://www.ProvN.com for the *best* OpenVMS system security solutions that others only claim to be. -- Cyber-Terrorism (si'-ber tayr'-or-iz-em) n.: The release of, the sale of, or the use of any Micro$oft software product! -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 21:03:16 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: HP rx2600 rack mount conversion Message-ID: <00A3F0B6.FF7BD027@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <00A3F0B5.F5A09CF1@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >In article , "FredK" writes: >> >>Go to hp.com and click on servers. Then type in A6939A in the "search" box. >>Then click on the product overview. It shows that the part is $75 and ships >>in >>2-3 weeks (it gave me a ship estimate of 2/28/05). > >THANKS*e+06 Fred. I'm almost there but the [Add to Cart>>] button doesn't >work. BTW, there's no description of the contents of this kit. Does is contain the rx2600 bezel, end caps, etc. If I place an order for this, I want to be assured that it is indeed what I need because if ordering a part is such a royal pain in the arse, I can only guess that returning the wrong part would make the ordering seem like a walk through the park. -- http://www.ProvN.com for the *best* OpenVMS system security solutions that others only claim to be. -- Cyber-Terrorism (si'-ber tayr'-or-iz-em) n.: The release of, the sale of, or the use of any Micro$oft software product! -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:31:23 -0500 From: "Dan Allen" Subject: RE: HP rx2600 rack mount conversion Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG [mailto:VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG] > Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 4:03 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: HP rx2600 rack mount conversion > > > In article <00A3F0B5.F5A09CF1@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- > @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > >In article , "FredK" > writes: > >> > >>Go to hp.com and click on servers. Then type in A6939A in the "search" box. > >>Then click on the product overview. It shows that the part is $75 and ships > >>in > >>2-3 weeks (it gave me a ship estimate of 2/28/05). > > > >THANKS*e+06 Fred. I'm almost there but the [Add to Cart>>] button doesn't > >work. Must be your browser setup - worked for me although I did not try to place the order. > > BTW, there's no description of the contents of this kit. Does is contain > the rx2600 bezel, end caps, etc. Product overview says rails and bezels... > > If I place an order for this, I want to be assured that it is indeed what > I need because if ordering a part is such a royal pain in the arse, I can > only guess that returning the wrong part would make the ordering seem like > a walk through the park. > > -- > http://www.ProvN.com for the *best* OpenVMS system security > solutions that others only claim to be. > -- > Cyber-Terrorism (si'-ber tayr'-or-iz-em) n.: > The release of, the sale of, or the use of any Micro$oft software product! > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 22:00:10 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: RE: HP rx2600 rack mount conversion Message-ID: <00A3F0BE.F287D518@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "Dan Allen" writes: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG [mailto:VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG] >> Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 4:03 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: HP rx2600 rack mount conversion >> >> >> In article <00A3F0B5.F5A09CF1@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- >> @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >> >In article , "FredK" >> writes: >> >> >> >>Go to hp.com and click on servers. Then type in A6939A in the "search" box. >> >>Then click on the product overview. It shows that the part is $75 and ships >> >>in >> >>2-3 weeks (it gave me a ship estimate of 2/28/05). >> > >> >THANKS*e+06 Fred. I'm almost there but the [Add to Cart>>] button doesn't >> >work. > >Must be your browser setup - worked for me although I did not try to place the >order. Latest updates to Safari, Netscape and Firefox on OS X Panther with all of the latest updates. Why does Carly only want to sell to PeeCee users? -- http://www.ProvN.com for the *best* OpenVMS system security solutions that others only claim to be. -- Cyber-Terrorism (si'-ber tayr'-or-iz-em) n.: The release of, the sale of, or the use of any Micro$oft software product! -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:39:16 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: IBM "Cell" chip - was Re: Curly soon to be out of a job Message-ID: <5oadnXJqKYCUfZrfRVn-qA@igs.net> This chip will start eating into Intel's x86/x86-64 profit pie. Pretty soon Intel won't be able to afford Itanic. http://www-1.ibm.com/press/PressServletForm.wss?MenuChoice=pressreleases&Tem plateName=ShowPressReleaseTemplate&SelectString=t1.docunid=7502&TableName=Da taheadApplicationClass&SESSIONKEY=any&WindowTitle=Press+Release&STATUS=publi sh IBM, Sony, Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. and Toshiba Disclose Key Details of the Cell Chip Innovative Design Features Eight Synergistic Cores Together with Power Based Core, Delivers More Than 10 Times the Performance of the Latest PC Processors SAN FRANCISCO -- Feb. 7, 2005 -- At the International Solid State Circuits Conference (ISSCC) today, IBM, Sony Corporation, Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. (Sony and Sony Computer Entertainment collectively referred to as Sony Group) and Toshiba Corporation (Toshiba) for the first time disclosed in detail the breakthrough multi-core architectural design - featuring supercomputer-like floating point performance with observed clock speeds greater than 4 GHz - of their jointly developed microprocessor code-named Cell. A team of IBM, Sony Group and Toshiba engineers has collaborated on development of the Cell microprocessor at a joint design center established in Austin, Texas, since March 2001. The prototype chip is 221 mm(2), integrates 234 million transistors, and is fabricated with 90 nanometer SOI technology. Cell's breakthrough multi-core architecture and ultra high-speed communications capabilities deliver vastly improved, real-time response for entertainment and rich media applications, in many cases 10 times the performance of the latest PC processors. Effectively a "supercomputer on a chip" incorporating advanced multi-processing technologies used in IBM's sophisticated servers, Sony Group's computer entertainment systems and Toshiba's advanced semiconductor technology, Cell will become the broadband processor used for industrial applications to the new digital home. Another advantage of Cell is to support multiple operating systems, such as conventional operating systems (including Linux), real-time operating systems for computer entertainment and consumer electronics applications as well as guest operating systems for specific applications, simultaneously. Initial production of Cell microprocessors is expected to begin at IBM's 300mm wafer fabrication facility in East Fishkill, N.Y., followed by Sony Group's Nagasaki Fab, this year. IBM, Sony Group and Toshiba expect to promote Cell-based products including a broad range of industry-wide applications, from digital televisions to home servers to supercomputers. Among the highlights of Cell released today: a.. Cell is a breakthrough architectural design -- featuring eight synergistic processors and top clock speeds of greater than 4 GHz (as measured during initial hardware testing) b.. Cell is a multicore chip capable of massive floating point processing c.. Cell is OS neutral and supports multiple operating systems simultaneously "Today's disclosure of the Cell chip's breakthrough architectural design is a significant milestone in an ambitious project that began four years ago with the creation of the IBM, Sony and Toshiba design lab in Austin, Texas," said William Zeitler, senior vice president and group executive, IBM Systems and Technology Group. "Today we see the tangible results of our collaboration: an open, multi-core, microprocessor that portends a new era in graphics and multi-media performance." "Today, we are very proud to share with you the first development of the Cell project, initiated with aspirations by the joint team of IBM, Sony Group and Toshiba in March 2001," said Ken Kutaragi, executive deputy president and COO, Sony Corporation, and president and Group CEO, Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. "With Cell opening a doorway, a new chapter in computer science is about to begin." "We are proud that Cell, a revolutionary microprocessor with a brand new architecture that leapfrogs the performance of existing processors, has been created through a perfect synergy of IBM, Sony Group and Toshiba's capabilities and talented resources, "said Masashi Muromachi, corporate vice president of Toshiba Corporation and president & CEO of Toshiba's Semiconductor Company. "We are confident that Cell will provide major momentum for the progress of digital convergence, as a core device sustaining a whole spectrum of advanced information-rich broadband applications, from consumer electronics, home entertainment through various industrial systems." About IBM IBM develops, manufactures and markets state-of-the-art semiconductor and interconnect technologies, products and services including industry-leading Power Architecture microprocessors. IBM semiconductors are a major contributor to the company's position as the world's largest information technology company. Its chip products and solutions power IBM eServer and TotalStorage systems as well as many of the world's best-known electronics brands. IBM semiconductor innovations include dual-core microprocessors, copper wiring, silicon-on-insulator and silicon germanium transistors, strained silicon, and eFUSE, a technology that enables computer chips to automatically respond to changing conditions. More information is available at: http://www.ibm.com/chips ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:28:40 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Message-ID: .....on getting VMS some wide recognition? Watched by more than 144 million viewers in the United States last year, the Super Bowl is the nation's highest-rated TV program and the most-watched single-day sporting event. It is the biggest stage for advertisers and their agencies, where they vie for the title of most memorable or entertaining commercial. This year, TV network Fox sold 30-second spots for up to $2.4 million each. Add 1/2 a mil to produce an ad and you're up to $3MM. I'll bet one or both Gorham or Marcello could write a personal check for that and then just add it as a entry on their monthy expense reports, complete with receipt...just like taxi receipts. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 19:32:17 +0000 (UTC) From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) Subject: Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Message-ID: In article , "John Smith" writes: > .....on getting VMS some wide recognition? > > Watched by more than 144 million viewers in the United States last year, the > Super Bowl is the nation's highest-rated TV program and the most-watched > single-day sporting event. Maybe, but VMS lacks some nipples. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 12:50:25 -0700 From: Dan O'Reilly Subject: Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050207124806.02307dd0@raptor.psccos.com> ..and what would it have accomplished? Answer: nothing. It would mean absolutely NOTHING to 99.999% of the people watching the game. And no CEO is going to spend megabucks based on what he saw on a Super Bowl ad. If you're going to spend $3m on advertising VMS, don't waste the money; put it into more ambassadors, into trade shows, into print ads. In other words, places where it would have a chance of doing some good. At 12:28 PM 2/7/2005, John Smith wrote: >.....on getting VMS some wide recognition? > >Watched by more than 144 million viewers in the United States last year, the >Super Bowl is the nation's highest-rated TV program and the most-watched >single-day sporting event. > > >It is the biggest stage for advertisers and their agencies, where they vie >for the title of most memorable or entertaining commercial. This year, TV >network Fox sold 30-second spots for up to $2.4 million each. > >Add 1/2 a mil to produce an ad and you're up to $3MM. > >I'll bet one or both Gorham or Marcello could write a personal check for >that and then just add it as a entry on their monthy expense reports, >complete with receipt...just like taxi receipts. ------ +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+ | Dan O'Reilly | "There are 10 types of people in this | | Principal Engineer | world: those who understand binary | | Process Software | and those who don't." | | http://www.process.com | | +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 15:52:40 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Message-ID: So spend $3MM on advertising VMS in more appropriate places - most of which have already been suggested. The Super Bowl was suggest only because it had hard numbers for both viewership and cost, and that it reaches lots of people all at once. Lots of lay people today know that they are affected by shoddy Microsoft memory leaks and susceptibility to worms/viruses, etc... and they are more demanding today than ever before. As to advertising on the Super Bowl broadcast, who knew what a 'Macintosh' was before the 1984 Super Bowl -yet how many people knew of it afterwards? Speaking of arcane (some might say) ways to spend money on advertising....SAP advertsing on Formula One race cars. Globally it probably has similar demographics as the Super Bowl, so don't say that high-end products can't gain exposure and mind-share through events like the Super Bowl. Another example ....you may not be in the market for an expensive watch today but when you are I'm sure that you will consider Rolex, Cartier, and several others that you've seen in advertising. That's what advertising does - it delivers a direct message and opens receptors to other messages you want to deliver. Dan O'Reilly wrote: > ..and what would it have accomplished? > > Answer: nothing. > > It would mean absolutely NOTHING to 99.999% of the people watching the > game. And no CEO is going to spend megabucks based on what he saw on > a Super Bowl ad. > > If you're going to spend $3m on advertising VMS, don't waste the > money; put it into more ambassadors, into trade shows, into print > ads. In other words, places where it would have a chance of doing > some good. > > At 12:28 PM 2/7/2005, John Smith wrote: >> .....on getting VMS some wide recognition? >> >> Watched by more than 144 million viewers in the United States last >> year, the Super Bowl is the nation's highest-rated TV program and >> the most-watched single-day sporting event. >> >> >> It is the biggest stage for advertisers and their agencies, where >> they vie for the title of most memorable or entertaining commercial. >> This year, TV network Fox sold 30-second spots for up to $2.4 >> million each. >> >> Add 1/2 a mil to produce an ad and you're up to $3MM. >> >> I'll bet one or both Gorham or Marcello could write a personal check >> for that and then just add it as a entry on their monthy expense >> reports, complete with receipt...just like taxi receipts. > > ------ > +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+ >> Dan O'Reilly | "There are 10 types of people in >> this | Principal Engineer | world: those who understand >> binary | Process Software | and those who don't." >> | http://www.process.com | >> | > +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 16:57:14 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Message-ID: <1107812751.89837f4f919687bf4cc515b3dc41194b@teranews> Dan O'Reilly wrote: > > ..and what would it have accomplished? > > Answer: nothing. > > It would mean absolutely NOTHING to 99.999% of the people watching the > game. And no CEO is going to spend megabucks based on what he saw on > a Super Bowl ad. WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. It would send a LOUD AND CLEAR message to the world that VMS is back in business under the HP brand and contrary to popular beliefe, it isn't dead and its robustness, qality etc is exactly what businesses need today. The number of cold calls HP might get the next day may not be that great. But what this commercial woudl do however, is open the door for when a VMS specific sales person wants to make a presentation/sales pitch at a potential new customer. That new customer will have remembered the ads, knowing that VMS is back in business and will give him a chance. Right now, customers are just saying "sorry, not interested in dead systems". ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 17:01:33 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Message-ID: <1107813011.409a37a8fc08e745efac8eca59019213@teranews> Oh one more thing. While it is true that the commercial might mena nothinbg to 99.9% of the people watching it, it would mean a hell of a lot to that .1% who might order hundreds of millions worth of business from VMS. It would also send a clear message that HP means its commitment to VMS. Superbowl ads are serious business and it is exactly because their are seen by so many poeple that what a company says in that ad is very very very serious (even if presented in a joke format). HP advertising VMS at superbowl and telling the world about it commitment to VMS would make it absolutely impossible for HP to reneg on that promise exactly because it commitment had such high visibility. Making a commitment in a room filled with 20 customers with no media attention makes it very easy for HP to break that commitment. HP making ads on TV about VMS would send a strong message to existing customers that HP is changing the way it is handling VMS and that VMS might be coming back isntead of being allow to rot by itself. It woudl most certaintly be a wait to gain respect and some trust from customers, somethint which HP has not even tried to do since it bought Compaq. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 15:16:03 -0700 From: Dan O'Reilly Subject: Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050207150836.0244bcb0@raptor.psccos.com> At 02:57 PM 2/7/2005, JF Mezei wrote: >Dan O'Reilly wrote: > > > > ..and what would it have accomplished? > > > > Answer: nothing. > > > > It would mean absolutely NOTHING to 99.999% of the people watching the > > game. And no CEO is going to spend megabucks based on what he saw on > > a Super Bowl ad. > >WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. > >It would send a LOUD AND CLEAR message to the world that VMS is back in >business under the HP brand and contrary to popular beliefe, it isn't >dead and its robustness, qality etc is exactly what businesses need today. Who in "the world" would care???? You don't sell server-class machines on mass-market TV. When was the last time you laughed over the Sun or IBM mainframe or HPUX or AIX or MPE .... commercial? I'll repeat: you're not reaching the people you need to. It works for Dell PC's because people know what a Dell PC is. It works for Gateway for the same reason. But it wouldn't work for VMS because, frankly, nobody who could make a decision would seriously make a decision based on the idea that it was in a TV ad. Puh-lease! >The number of cold calls HP might get the next day may not be that >great. But what this commercial woudl do however, is open the door for >when a VMS specific sales person wants to make a presentation/sales >pitch at a potential new customer. That new customer will have >remembered the ads, knowing that VMS is back in business and will give >him a chance. Right now, customers are just saying "sorry, not >interested in dead systems". ------ +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+ | Dan O'Reilly | "There are 10 types of people in this | | Principal Engineer | world: those who understand binary | | Process Software | and those who don't." | | http://www.process.com | | +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 2005 23:24:24 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Message-ID: <36qbl8F568dkgU1@individual.net> In article <6.1.2.0.2.20050207150836.0244bcb0@raptor.psccos.com>, Dan O'Reilly writes: > At 02:57 PM 2/7/2005, JF Mezei wrote: >>Dan O'Reilly wrote: >> > >> > ..and what would it have accomplished? >> > >> > Answer: nothing. >> > >> > It would mean absolutely NOTHING to 99.999% of the people watching the >> > game. And no CEO is going to spend megabucks based on what he saw on >> > a Super Bowl ad. >> >>WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. >> >>It would send a LOUD AND CLEAR message to the world that VMS is back in >>business under the HP brand and contrary to popular beliefe, it isn't >>dead and its robustness, qality etc is exactly what businesses need today. > > Who in "the world" would care???? You don't sell server-class machines > on mass-market TV. When was the last time you laughed over the Sun or > IBM mainframe or HPUX or AIX or MPE .... commercial? I seldom laugh at them, unless they were intended to actually be funny. Mostly, I watch them to get an idea where a particular company is and is headed. Sometimes, the commercial leads me to go out and do more research to learn even more about it. > I'll repeat: you're > not reaching the people you need to. You honestly think that no executives care about football or were likely to watch the SuperBowl? Who do you think owns those teams? Why do you think all the stadiums have corporate sponsors? > > It works for Dell PC's because people know what a Dell PC is. It works > for Gateway for the same reason. But it wouldn't work for VMS because, > frankly, nobody who could make a decision would seriously make a decision > based on the idea that it was in a TV ad. Puh-lease! It's not about making a decision based on the commercial (I love the Budweiser commercials, but I am not about to buy their beer. :-) It is about making people aware of a product. It's so that when the salesman actually comes to their office they actually know the product exists. If the commercial is done well enough, everyone will be talking about it in the office for at least a week. That might make someone interested enough to actually research the product. Right now, no one even knows about VMS so they are unlikely to go looking for information about it. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 21:29:58 -0500 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Message-ID: <110g8hc61i6qq77@corp.supernews.com> John Smith wrote: > .....on getting VMS some wide recognition? > > Watched by more than 144 million viewers in the United States last year, the > Super Bowl is the nation's highest-rated TV program and the most-watched > single-day sporting event. > > > It is the biggest stage for advertisers and their agencies, where they vie > for the title of most memorable or entertaining commercial. This year, TV > network Fox sold 30-second spots for up to $2.4 million each. > > Add 1/2 a mil to produce an ad and you're up to $3MM. > > I'll bet one or both Gorham or Marcello could write a personal check for > that and then just add it as a entry on their monthy expense reports, > complete with receipt...just like taxi receipts. > > > Maybe, maybe not. I once turned in an expense report, with an item for 'car rental' at Malibu Speedway. Perplexed office manager comes around and asks what Malibu Speedway is. After I explained, I got this real strange look, and the proclimation, "I'm going to pay this, but don't you ever do this again!" Dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 21:39:55 -0500 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Message-ID: <110g945nrdiui7f@corp.supernews.com> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <6.1.2.0.2.20050207150836.0244bcb0@raptor.psccos.com>, > Dan O'Reilly writes: > >>At 02:57 PM 2/7/2005, JF Mezei wrote: >> >>>Dan O'Reilly wrote: >>> >>>>..and what would it have accomplished? >>>> >>>>Answer: nothing. >>>> >>>>It would mean absolutely NOTHING to 99.999% of the people watching the >>>>game. And no CEO is going to spend megabucks based on what he saw on >>>>a Super Bowl ad. >>> >>>WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. >>> >>>It would send a LOUD AND CLEAR message to the world that VMS is back in >>>business under the HP brand and contrary to popular beliefe, it isn't >>>dead and its robustness, qality etc is exactly what businesses need today. >> >>Who in "the world" would care???? You don't sell server-class machines >>on mass-market TV. When was the last time you laughed over the Sun or >>IBM mainframe or HPUX or AIX or MPE .... commercial? > > > I seldom laugh at them, unless they were intended to actually be > funny. Mostly, I watch them to get an idea where a particular > company is and is headed. Sometimes, the commercial leads me to > go out and do more research to learn even more about it. > > >> I'll repeat: you're >>not reaching the people you need to. > > > You honestly think that no executives care about football or were likely > to watch the SuperBowl? Who do you think owns those teams? Why do you > think all the stadiums have corporate sponsors? > > >>It works for Dell PC's because people know what a Dell PC is. It works >>for Gateway for the same reason. But it wouldn't work for VMS because, >>frankly, nobody who could make a decision would seriously make a decision >>based on the idea that it was in a TV ad. Puh-lease! > > > It's not about making a decision based on the commercial (I love the > Budweiser commercials, but I am not about to buy their beer. :-) > It is about making people aware of a product. It's so that when the > salesman actually comes to their office they actually know the product > exists. If the commercial is done well enough, everyone will be talking > about it in the office for at least a week. That might make someone > interested enough to actually research the product. Right now, no one > even knows about VMS so they are unlikely to go looking for information > about it. > > bill > I'm not sure where I'd stand on an advertisement during the Super Bowl. It's real easy to spend someone else's money. However, some observations. The stupid donkey in the Budweiser commercials does gain your interest. What I mean is that you remember the commercial. And that's the purpose of a commercial, to get your attention, not to educate you. As for computer related commercials, how many remember the IBM commercial, with the guy calling the cops over an empty computer room? Yeah, that's right, quite a few remember that one, and those who remember it the most would be those affected by a room full of single purpose computers. That commercial made it's point, and is remembered. If such a commercial were done, it would have to be as good as the IBM commercial, or it would be a waste of money. Just spending money for a commercial does nothing. The question is, does HP have anyone with an appropriate message? Dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 22:40:23 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Message-ID: Dan O'Reilly wrote: > At 02:57 PM 2/7/2005, JF Mezei wrote: >> Dan O'Reilly wrote: >>> >>> ..and what would it have accomplished? >>> >>> Answer: nothing. >>> >>> It would mean absolutely NOTHING to 99.999% of the people watching >>> the game. And no CEO is going to spend megabucks based on what he >>> saw on a Super Bowl ad. >> >> WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. >> >> It would send a LOUD AND CLEAR message to the world that VMS is back >> in business under the HP brand and contrary to popular beliefe, it >> isn't dead and its robustness, qality etc is exactly what businesses >> need today. > > Who in "the world" would care???? You don't sell server-class > machines on mass-market TV. When was the last time you laughed over > the Sun or IBM mainframe or HPUX or AIX or MPE .... commercial? I'll > repeat: you're not reaching the people you need to. > > It works for Dell PC's because people know what a Dell PC is. It > works for Gateway for the same reason. But it wouldn't work for VMS > because, frankly, nobody who could make a decision would seriously > make a decision based on the idea that it was in a TV ad. Puh-lease! > >> The number of cold calls HP might get the next day may not be that >> great. But what this commercial woudl do however, is open the door >> for when a VMS specific sales person wants to make a >> presentation/sales >> pitch at a potential new customer. That new customer will have >> remembered the ads, knowing that VMS is back in business and will >> give him a chance. Right now, customers are just saying "sorry, not >> interested in dead systems". http://www.udel.edu/PR/UDaily/2004/ads012704.html Ads make the Super Bowl more fun, many viewers say Macintosh's sledgehammer hurls toward Big Brother: The first Macintosh computer was introduced during the 1984 Super Bowl broadcast in a 60-second Orwellian spot done by "Blade Runner" movie director Ridley Scott. 2:13 p.m., Jan. 27, 2004--Perhaps a record number of viewers will see 30 minutes of the most expensive commercial time in advertising history when CBS broadcasts Super Bowl XXXVIII from Reliant Stadium in Houston on Sunday evening, Feb. 1. Though CBS likely still had a few spots left early this week, perhaps for as little as $60,000 per second, time sold briskly despite declining interest in network television advertising, according to John Antil, associate professor of business administration in the Alfred Lerner College of Business and Economics at UD. "But," according to Antil, an expert on commercial advertising during the big game, "the Super Bowl is, well, the Super Bowl, the only broadcast for which viewers want to see, evaluate and talk about the ads." About *one-half* of viewers believe the ads make the Super Bowl more enjoyable and claim to *pay* *attention* to all the ads, Antil said. Although the commercials themselves traditionally tend to be male-oriented, about 45 percent of the 130 million viewers will be females, he said. Guessing what viewers at the year's top at-home party will see this year is difficult to say. "Unlike last year, when sponsors were paying public relations firms to promote and even show parts of the ads prior to the game, this year secrecy once again rules," Antil said. "Though we will find out if the donkey can become a member of the Clydesdales and get a first look at Gillette's new battery powered vibrating razor, most of the commercials will have to remain surprises.' Antil said some "delicate" products will be featured in three erectile dysfunction brands and a toilet paper brand, the latter a first for Super Bowl advertising. The Procter & Gamble Co., one of the world's largest advertisers, held an internal contest to see which brand would get the honors. "Of course, Charmin won and will make it into the Bowl," he said. The erectile dysfunction brands have a real challenge in creating captivating ads for a product whose benefits are difficult to describe or show on television, Antil said, and they must do this within a commercial environment in which deviating from humor and entertainment has proven to be dangerous. Conspicuously absent from the Super Bowl XXXVIII commercial line-up is Apple. "This is the 20th anniversary of the famous 1984 Apple Macintosh commercial that is often credited with making the Super Bowl the showcase for ads that it has become," Antil said. "Apple has new products, a large ad budget and a history of interest in splashy, major events so let's not be surprised if the computer company shows up at the ad event they helped create." That commercial, created by Ridley Scott, featured a world like that in George Orwell's novel "1984" and has been nominated as one of the greatest Super Bowl commercials. http://www.wired.com/news/mac/0,2125,61729,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1 As well as new hardware, there also are murmurs of a high-profile Super Bowl ad to pay homage to the "1984" ad by Ridley Scott that launched the Mac. The influential ad, which cost a fortune and was shown only once, has become one of the most famous and celebrated spots in advertising history. .... http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=node/view/8462 as an example of what could be done in the absence of HP doing anything constructive (which appears highly unlikely). Even ISV companies selling into the VMS market could participate - without a steady stream of new VMS customers coming on-board, they only have the exisiting customer base to sell into ... This is not the kind of growth model anyone's bank manager wants to hear when they are thinking about pulling a company's operating line-of-credit out from under them. Go to hpuseradvocacy.org and read the HP responses to customer concerns about marketing and advertising. We are told that Itanic ads will mention VMS. Out of the approximately 8-10 different Itanic print ads I have seen over the past 5 months or so, VMS was mentioned in exactly one (in the fine print...at the end...under a comma...hidden behind a potted plant in the corner). I kindda feel like Jerry McGuire right now....I want to scream out "SHOW ME THE MONEY" spent on VMS advertising. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 22:56:02 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Is $3 million really so much to spend.... Message-ID: Dave Froble wrote: > John Smith wrote: >> .....on getting VMS some wide recognition? >> >> Watched by more than 144 million viewers in the United States last >> year, the Super Bowl is the nation's highest-rated TV program and >> the most-watched single-day sporting event. >> >> >> It is the biggest stage for advertisers and their agencies, where >> they vie for the title of most memorable or entertaining commercial. >> This year, TV network Fox sold 30-second spots for up to $2.4 >> million each. >> >> Add 1/2 a mil to produce an ad and you're up to $3MM. >> >> I'll bet one or both Gorham or Marcello could write a personal check >> for that and then just add it as a entry on their monthy expense >> reports, complete with receipt...just like taxi receipts. >> >> >> > Maybe, maybe not. > > I once turned in an expense report, with an item for 'car rental' at > Malibu Speedway. Perplexed office manager comes around and asks what > Malibu Speedway is. After I explained, I got this real strange look, > and the proclimation, "I'm going to pay this, but don't you ever do > this again!" Yeah, but in the case of Gorham/Marcello doing the ad purchase, by then 150 million people would have heard of VMS and perhaps 100,000 of them would be calling HP asking about it - about $30 per prospect...which is about as cheap as parking your car for 1 day in NYC. And about 1 million+ more would have some clue about what you sold. Which is a far better proposition than many thinking that 'adaptive' was somehow related to 'evolution', which we all *know* is just a theory......just like the "little adaptive enterprise that could" run by a fairy pixie that couldn't get its SAP together. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 18:50:37 -0500 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: Itanium In the Press Message-ID: All, The following article is fyi: (Feb 06, 2005) http://news.com.com/Intel+to+detail+dual-core+Itanium+at+conference/2100 -1006_3-5564122.html?tag=3Dnl "Montecito, Intel's first dual-core chip, will contain nearly 2 billion transistors but will run cooler than its existing relatives.=20 A member of the Itanium family of server processors, Montecito will contain 1.7 billion transistors, making it Intel's first chip to crack the billion mark in transistors, and run at 2GHz, faster than existing Itaniums, according to Nimish Modi, vice president of the Digital Enterprise Group at Intel.=20 Montecito, however, will sport a thermal ceiling, or maximum power output, of 100 watts, lower than the 130-watt ceiling of existing Itaniums and about equal to some of Intel's hottest desktop chips.=20 Intel will publish a paper on Montecito, along with one on a silicon radio with multiple antennas, at the International Solid State Circuits Conference, or ISSCC, a five-day event in San Francisco that began Sunday. The Montecito chip is due out later this year." [snip....] Regards, Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 "OpenVMS has always had integrity .. Now, Integrity has OpenVMS .." ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 2005 22:08:25 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Itanium In the Press Message-ID: In article , "Main, Kerry" quotes: > Montecito, however, will sport a thermal ceiling, or maximum power > output, of 100 watts, lower than the 130-watt ceiling of existing > Itaniums and about equal to some of Intel's hottest desktop chips.=20 But still too hot for a laptop :-( ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 20:26:17 GMT From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: Lexical to get ACL Message-ID: In article , Z writes: :>> :>> CREATE file2 :>> SET SECURITY/LIKE=NAME=file1 file2 :>> DELETE file1 : :> That would be one approach, yes, assuming there's room on the target :> volume for both "versions" of the file. ... : : ? : :Wouldn't the $CREATE file2 create a 0-block file2 ? Um, Yeah, but *I* don't care what might be in file2, if anything. :-) That wasn't the question. :-) That step is left up to the particular DCL programmer involved here. My intent was to show an example of the commands necessary, and not to solve the problem -- if you want the full solution with all the options and all error recovery steps and such, ring up HP services and ask to contract me for an on-site visit. :-) Preference will be given to sites in Hawaii, San Diego or someplace else nice, of course. :-) But seriously, COPY would certainly work as a way to populate the contents of the file, of course, and the remainder of the sequence would be similar to what I posted in the reply. Also note that new versions also tend to inherent the file security settings from lower versions. ---------------------------- #include ----------------------------- For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq --------------------------- pure personal opinion --------------------------- Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman OpenVMS Engineering hoff[at]hp.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 15:11:01 -0800 From: Z Subject: Re: Lexical to get ACL Message-ID: Hoff Hoffman wrote: > :>> CREATE file2 > :>> SET SECURITY/LIKE=NAME=file1 file2 > :>> DELETE file1 > : > :> That would be one approach, yes, assuming there's room on the target > :> volume for both "versions" of the file. ... > : > : ? > : > :Wouldn't the $CREATE file2 create a 0-block file2 ? > > Um, Yeah, but *I* don't care what might be in file2, if anything. :-) > That wasn't the question. :-) That step is left up to the particular > DCL programmer involved here. My confusion was RE: the statement in response to the 3 commands above that you must have enough space for 2 versions of the file. The ; version will be 0 blocks. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 00:01:44 GMT From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: Lexical to get ACL Message-ID: In article , Z writes: :My confusion was RE: the statement in response to the 3 commands above :that you must have enough space for 2 versions of the file. The ; :version will be 0 blocks. Ayup. As for the concern, buy more disk. Seriously. Adding disk storage is comparatively cheap, and readily available -- if you are this close to full on your storage, then there are serious concerns over the maintenance of the various file system caches including extent caches, of file fragmentation, and other performance-related related concerns. As a rule-of-thumb, I prefer to keep 10% of a disk spindle free, though this number may differ (radically), depending on the relative sizes of the files involved, and on the sorts of file activity patterns seen on the particular spindle. Write and extend I/O performance on a near-full disk is comparatively bad, and you regularly get to deal with the failure cases -- and recovering a failure during a multi-part file update can get ugly, too. Current-generation systems generally don't generally ship with anything smaller than 18 or 36GB SCSI disks, for instance, and larger disks are available. Older RZ-class SCSI StorageWorks bricks (disks) regularly show up on eBay for comparatively small change -- you might end up paying more for the shipping costs than for the purchase of the brick. And yes, a zero-block file doesn't particularly require any serious storage beyond the file header(s) and -- barring large ACLs or serious file fragmentation -- generally require one block for the file header, and one entry in a directory. ---------------------------- #include ----------------------------- For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.hp.com/go/openvms/faq --------------------------- pure personal opinion --------------------------- Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman OpenVMS Engineering hoff[at]hp.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 19:28:19 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Lexical to get ACL Message-ID: <420815B3.C52CFE6E@comcast.net> Hoff Hoffman wrote: > > In article , Z writes: > :My confusion was RE: the statement in response to the 3 commands above > :that you must have enough space for 2 versions of the file. The ; > :version will be 0 blocks. > > Ayup. > > As for the concern, buy more disk. Easier said than done. Worked in Corporate America lately? Tried to get *ANY*thing OpenVMS past the bean-counters and the Lord High Exchequer? > Seriously. Adding disk storage is > comparatively cheap, and readily available -- if you are this close to > full on your storage, then there are serious concerns over the maintenance > of the various file system caches including extent caches, of file > fragmentation, and other performance-related related concerns. There is also serious concern about whether management sees continued investment in a "dead" platform as a wise move. ...but you've read that here before many times. There's certainly no *NEED* for me to say it again (is there?). > As a rule-of-thumb, I prefer to keep 10% of a disk spindle free, though > this number may differ (radically), depending on the relative sizes of > the files involved, and on the sorts of file activity patterns seen on > the particular spindle. ...which is fine until, for example, a 4.1GB file no longer fits on an RZ29 (3.99GBF). Then you're screwed, unless you have some RZ1DDs among your "surplus" gear. ...and for the sake of my colleagues, I certainly hope THEY have some spare kit, since HP's current SAP snafu prevents them from shipping any at the moment. > Write and extend I/O performance on a near-full disk is comparatively > bad, and you regularly get to deal with the failure cases -- and > recovering a failure during a multi-part file update can get ugly, too. > > Current-generation systems generally don't generally ship with anything > smaller than 18 or 36GB SCSI disks, for instance, and larger disks are > available. Older RZ-class SCSI StorageWorks bricks (disks) regularly > show up on eBay for comparatively small change -- you might end up > paying more for the shipping costs than for the purchase of the brick. ...but then, of course, you're buying stuff for your employer out of your own pocket, and they certainly aren't about to reimburse you for something in which they see no value/future. > And yes, a zero-block file doesn't particularly require any serious > storage beyond the file header(s) and -- barring large ACLs or serious > file fragmentation -- generally require one block for the file header, > and one entry in a directory. In a squeeze, the truncate method suggested earlier can help, maybe. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 21:50:43 -0500 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: Lexical to get ACL Message-ID: <110g9ob1anuig96@corp.supernews.com> David J Dachtera wrote: > Hoff Hoffman wrote: > >>In article , Z writes: >>:My confusion was RE: the statement in response to the 3 commands above >>:that you must have enough space for 2 versions of the file. The ; >>:version will be 0 blocks. >> >> Ayup. >> >> As for the concern, buy more disk. > > > Easier said than done. Worked in Corporate America lately? Tried to get > *ANY*thing OpenVMS past the bean-counters and the Lord High Exchequer? If things are that bad, then you either tell the idiots to run the business without the system, or go to plan 'B'. How hard is it to bury a few bucks in an expense report? >>Seriously. Adding disk storage is >> comparatively cheap, and readily available -- if you are this close to >> full on your storage, then there are serious concerns over the maintenance >> of the various file system caches including extent caches, of file >> fragmentation, and other performance-related related concerns. > > > There is also serious concern about whether management sees continued > investment in a "dead" platform as a wise move. If it's that bad, then tell them to exercise their options. Buy whatever they think isn't dead, or do without. > ...but you've read that here before many times. There's certainly no > *NEED* for me to say it again (is there?). > > >> As a rule-of-thumb, I prefer to keep 10% of a disk spindle free, though >> this number may differ (radically), depending on the relative sizes of >> the files involved, and on the sorts of file activity patterns seen on >> the particular spindle. > > > ...which is fine until, for example, a 4.1GB file no longer fits on an > RZ29 (3.99GBF). Then you're screwed, unless you have some RZ1DDs among > your "surplus" gear. If your management won't spring for a 9 GB disk, then just let the thing die. (Make sure you're covered with memos requesting the upgrade, and hopefully their negative responses, in writing.) > ...and for the sake of my colleagues, I certainly hope THEY have some > spare kit, since HP's current SAP snafu prevents them from shipping any > at the moment. SAPed. >> Write and extend I/O performance on a near-full disk is comparatively >> bad, and you regularly get to deal with the failure cases -- and >> recovering a failure during a multi-part file update can get ugly, too. >> >> Current-generation systems generally don't generally ship with anything >> smaller than 18 or 36GB SCSI disks, for instance, and larger disks are >> available. Older RZ-class SCSI StorageWorks bricks (disks) regularly >> show up on eBay for comparatively small change -- you might end up >> paying more for the shipping costs than for the purchase of the brick. > > > ...but then, of course, you're buying stuff for your employer out of > your own pocket, and they certainly aren't about to reimburse you for > something in which they see no value/future. > > >> And yes, a zero-block file doesn't particularly require any serious >> storage beyond the file header(s) and -- barring large ACLs or serious >> file fragmentation -- generally require one block for the file header, >> and one entry in a directory. > > > In a squeeze, the truncate method suggested earlier can help, maybe. > Seriously, if they won't pay for what's needed, let the shit hit the fan. Have some examples of PCs bought for individuals with 200 GB disks, while the management won't spring for 1/4 of that for the system that runs the whole company, not one desktop. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 22:12:19 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: new version of SYMBOL on my site Message-ID: <00A3F0C0.A5125049@SendSpamHere.ORG> If you use my SYMBOL utility or would like to try it out, there is a new version on my web site. http://www.tmesis.com/symbol/ This version fixes a problem when SYMBOL was installed on OpenVMS V7.3-2 -- http://www.ProvN.com for the *best* OpenVMS system security solutions that others only claim to be. -- Cyber-Terrorism (si'-ber tayr'-or-iz-em) n.: The release of, the sale of, or the use of any Micro$oft software product! -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 19:31:59 -0800 From: Jeff Cameron Subject: OpenVMS Job opportunity in Southern California Message-ID: MTI, a leader in storage systems for over 20 years is looking for motivated individuals who are interested in providing software support for a variety of storage related software products. Applicants should be well versed in current storage and backup technologies for a wide variety of platforms and operating systems, especially OpenVMS. The particular position we are looking to fill would require proficiency in the OpenVMS Operating system as well as one or more of the following; UNIX, Linux and/or Windows. Background in Networking, SAN/NAS storage systems, Oracle and or MS Exchange servers are a big plus. MTI is a world-wide company with corporate offices located in Orange County in Southern California. The position would be in the Tustin Corporate office. The position would be supporting MTI's OpenVMS suite of software products roughly 25% to 33% of the time initially. If you are interested, please send your cover letter and resume to VMSSupport@mti.com. http://support.mti.com http://www.mti.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 16:32:17 -0600 From: brandon@dalsemi.com (John Brandon) Subject: Re: REBOOT or SHUTDOWN, how to tell in SYSSHUTDWN.COMj Message-ID: <05020716321719@dscis6-0.dalsemi.com> David J Dachtera > Well, o.k., but I'm still wondering why a reboot differs from a shutdown. > Either way, everything stops. True - however a REBOOT is typicall of ECO patches, etc., whereas a shutdown may imply hardware upgrades or configuration. In addition knowing the average time required for a reboot helps us plan future reboots. A shutdown does not as it may be down for one hour or 20 minutes. A preference. John "REBOOT" Brandon VMS Systems Administrator firstname.lastname.spam.me.not@dalsemi.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 19:44:19 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: REBOOT or SHUTDOWN, how to tell in SYSSHUTDWN.COMj Message-ID: <42081972.28FD9138@comcast.net> John Brandon wrote: > > David J Dachtera > > > Well, o.k., but I'm still wondering why a reboot differs from a shutdown. > > Either way, everything stops. > > True - however a REBOOT is typicall of ECO patches, etc., whereas a shutdown > may imply hardware upgrades or configuration. In addition knowing the average > time required for a reboot helps us plan future reboots. Very near the top of SYSHUTDWN.COM: $ COPY NLA0: SYS$MANAHER:SHUTDOWN_FLAG.DAT Very near the end of SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM: $ FSP := SYS$MANAGER:SHUTDOWN_FLAG.DAT $ IF F$SEARCH( FSP ) .NES. "" $ THEN $ NOW = F$CVTIME( ,, "TIME" ) $ THEN = F$FILE( FSP, "CDT" ) $ DURATN = F$CVTIME( "''NOW'-''THEN'",, "TIME" ) $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT " Approx. Downtime Duration: ", DURATN $ DELETE 'FSP';* $ ENDIF If you include: $ DEFINE SYS$OUTPUT SYSTARTUP_VMS.LOG ...at the top of SYSTARTUP_VMS and $ DEASSIGN SYS$OUTPUT ...near the end, you'll have a record log of every boot, and therefore a record of your outages. You'll know when you were shutdown and when you just rebooted (won't you?) so you can process the times manually and develop an overview of your experiences. > A shutdown does not > as it may be down for one hour or 20 minutes. > > A preference. O.k., I guess. Seems a lot to go through to collect such a simple statistic. Just gather the data. Short durations are likely reboots. Longer durations are likely planned outages (the file gets deleted during SYSTARTUP_VMS, so there's be no duration report from a restart after a crash). -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 2005 11:09:33 -0800 From: chessmaster1010@hotmail.com Subject: setting up a LAT forward port Message-ID: <1107803373.350724.263130@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> We have applications that read or write data to/from serial ports that were migrated to use LAT terminal server ports years ago. The programs that transfer the data know nothing about the LAT protocol itself, and I would prefer to keep them that way for portabilitity concerns. We have DCL scripts that uses LATCP to pre-create application ports and assign them the appropiate target service and target node. We ALLOCATE the LTAxx: device in DCL and then run a separate setup program that just does a IO$_TTY_PORT!I$M_LT_CONNECT $QIOW call and exits. Since the device is allocated the connection remains and the LTAxx: device is ready for the application program to read/write to it. This all works well, but because we're using LAT application ports we have to specify a target node, not just a target service. This leaves us vulnerable if one particular terminal server goes down. We would like the process to be able to connet to any terminal server offering the data service. To specify a target service without a target node I need to use a forward LAT port (outgoing LAT). There is a program example on how to create and use a forward LAT port in the I/O User's reference manual. The problem is there seems to be no easy way to create and assign the port in a setup program before running a separate application program that reads/writes to a forward port. LATCP will not create a forward port. You have to clone one by assigning a channel to LTA0:. I can write a setup program to do this and it can even set the target service and make the connection, but when the program exits the channel is deassigned and the LTAxx: device is immediately deleted. Using SYS$ALLOC to allocate he LTAxx: device doesn't help because it's only allocated in user-mode so that goes away too when the program exits. Spawning an ALLOCATE command while the program has a channel assigned to the device just returns a "device allocated to another user" error. I have even tried to create the forward port from DCL itself with "OPEN/READ/WRITE LATPORT LTA0:". I was hoping I could then ALLOCATE LATPORT, CLOSE LATPORT, run LATCP and/or a setup program to assign the target service and make the connection. This approach almost works except for a very strange DCL bug (I see it under VMS 6.2 and VMS 7.2). When you do the above OPEN command in DCL the LATPORT logical is created, for example: $ show logical latport "LATPORT" = "_NODEA$LTA120" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE) But that device never exists: $ mcr latcp show port lta120: %LAT-W-CMDERROR, error reported by command executor -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHDEV, no such device available The device that is actually created by the DCL OPEN command is always one unit number higher than the device name returned in the DCL logical: $ mcr latcp show port lta121 Local Port Name: _LTA121: Local Port Type: Forward (NonQueued) Local Port State: Inactive Connected Link: Target Port Name: Actual Port Name: Target Node Name: Actual Node Name: Target Service Name: Actual Service Name: I guess what I would really like is an easy way to ALLOCATE the LTAxx: device in supervisor mode from a program but there seems to be no API for this like there is for LIB$SET_LOGICAL, and I'd rather not use SYS$CMEXEC if I don't have to. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 16:53:48 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: setting up a LAT forward port Message-ID: <1107812543.f32470133b00f024ac7c7b602ac3ff02@teranews> chessmaster1010@hotmail.com wrote: > The problem is there seems to be no easy way to create and assign the > port in a setup program before running a separate application program > that reads/writes to a forward port. My initial reaction is to suggest you write a small shareable image which is called by your main program and which does the LAT specific stuff and returns the channel which your application program then uses transparently. This would require one change. From then on, you could make changes to the LAT side by changing your shareable image and your application wouldn't need to be changed. This way, the port would be connected from within your application (as opposed to being done prior to yoru application starting) and would eliminate the problem you are having of a lat connect not "sticking" between two separate images running. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 16:26:28 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Setup of LN05 Laser on VMS v5.1 without DCPS Message-ID: <1107810909.383dbb6f7754440bf641b13dd9a6cd58@teranews> Nessie wrote: > We are trying to install a LN05 (Declaser LA2100) printer with no > manual supplied, to replace a printronix line printer. Do you know if it has a postscript option installed ? try: SET HOST/DTE then type (carefully, because it won't be echoed) (Hello world\n) print flush If you see "hello world" it means it is a postscript printer. If you do not see anything, then press which should cause the printer to eject a page with "(Hello world\n) print flush" on top of the page. If you do not have postscript, then the printer behaves very much like an LN03 printer. http://vt100.net/emu/ctrlseq_dec.html may be a starting point on escape sequences. In such a case, you can simply create a queue with the standard default print symbiont. You can use SYS$SYSTEM:SYSDEVCTL.TLB to store setup modules that contain standard escape sequences you use. A note: your printer may not have sufficient memory to have a full page bitmap image (sizel). But if it does, you can use utilities such as ghostscript or the old DECPRINT POSTSCRIPT TO SIXEL utility to convert prostscript files to full page sizel which can then be printed on the printer. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 21:18:26 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Simple copy question (RMS-E-FEX) Message-ID: <1107828411.fdb73d26248fff7befbf4ec4f3bd90ab@teranews> $SHOW DEF $DISK4:[JFMEZEI.XVIEWLIB] $COPY SYS$LIBRARY:TPU$MOTIFSHR.EXE []temp.exe It fails with "file already exists, not superceded" message (RMS-E-FEX). Temp.exe;1 does exist. But why didn't the above command create temp.exe;2 ???? specifying "[]temp.exe;" did work. What is it in the file specification of the first command that caused it to fail ? It seems I have often used a similar command without problem. (copy is not defined as a symbol). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 00:17:38 -0500 From: "Hein RMS van den Heuvel" Subject: Re: Simple copy question (RMS-E-FEX) Message-ID: <42084c8a$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com> "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:1107828411.fdb73d26248fff7befbf4ec4f3bd90ab@teranews... > $SHOW DEF > $DISK4:[JFMEZEI.XVIEWLIB] > > $COPY SYS$LIBRARY:TPU$MOTIFSHR.EXE []temp.exe > > It fails with "file already exists, not superceded" message (RMS-E-FEX). Somehow, somewhere a version number is decided. Probably through a logical name / Installed image? It this a 'know file', known file processing is stopped with an explicit version number. Why not give us a full error message from COPY /LOG? Something like: $COPY SYS$LIBRARY:TPU$MOTIFSHR.EXE []temp.exe;1/log %COPY-E-OPENOUT, error opening U$1:[XXX]TEMP.EXE;1 as output -RMS-E-FEX, file already exists, not superseded %COPY-W-NOTCOPIED, SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]TPU$MOTIFSHR.EXE;1 not copied I would also try SET WATCH FILE/CLAS =MAJOR to get a grasp of what might be going on (needs CMKRNL. Clear with logout, or SET WATC FILE/CLA=NONE ) fwiw, Hein. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 00:49:32 -0500 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Simple copy question (RMS-E-FEX) Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > $SHOW DEF > $DISK4:[JFMEZEI.XVIEWLIB] > > $COPY SYS$LIBRARY:TPU$MOTIFSHR.EXE []temp.exe > > It fails with "file already exists, not superceded" message (RMS-E-FEX). > > Temp.exe;1 does exist. But why didn't the above command create > temp.exe;2 ???? > > specifying "[]temp.exe;" did work. > > What is it in the file specification of the first command that caused it > to fail ? It seems I have often used a similar command without problem. Could it be something as trivial as COPY using the resultant string of the input file as the default string for the output file (as your experiment using ';' on the output side might suggest)? You could try different inputs, some of whose version numbers collided with an existing output filespec and others of which did not, to obtain additional implicit evidence of this (or just get someone to glance at the code...). - bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 01:08:30 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Simple copy question (RMS-E-FEX) Message-ID: <1107842192.81788220041b56552f5739bd51ea3024@teranews> Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote: > Somehow, somewhere a version number is decided. > Probably through a logical name / Installed image? Nop. I realised what what happening. I used the doubleclick method to paste the source filename into the copy command. And that included the version number of the source file. copy sys$library:TPU$MOTIFSHR.EXE;1 []temp.exe And that fails because, since there is an explicit version number in the source, and none in the target, the target inherits the version number of the source, and hence, it tries to copy to temp.exe;1 which fails because the file already exists. So what this means is that if you specify a source version number, you must supply a target version number (of just a ;) to prevent the source's version info from being used to construct the target file specification. Logical but confusing, especially in a decterm environment where copying full file names to construct commands is common. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 2005 16:09:56 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com Subject: Why aren't more universities doing this? Message-ID: <1107821396.025828.137400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> http://www.shannonknowshpc.com/stories.php?story=05/02/07/1720316 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 19:47:08 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Why aren't more universities doing this? Message-ID: <42081A1C.206731AD@comcast.net> Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > > In article <1107821396.025828.137400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, > bob@instantwhip.com writes: > > > http://www.shannonknowshpc.com/stories.php?story=05/02/07/1720316 > > > > (article about an Italian university that got some free kit from > HP to port open source applications to VMS ). > > Probably because that's not where the faculty interest lies. Since > they don't teach VMS their students aren't too likely to want to take > on porting projects to VMS. > > Having said that, if I had any idea how to find out the details of > how to access the program I'd be glad to pass the information on to > the CS faculty. Anybody got any pointers? Try your local ambassador(s)? Send a private inquiry to Sue S.? Drop a note to Mark G.? -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:20:42 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Why aren't more universities doing this? Message-ID: bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > http://www.shannonknowshpc.com/stories.php?story=05/02/07/1720316 The entire program was flawed from the start - launched nearly a year ago, the University of Turn is one of perhaps 2-3 educational institutions that decided to participate - a far cry from the 20 or so that HP wanted to have. Think about it....how many universities are going to give a course credit to a student for porting open source to VMS? I have repeatedly asked HP to *fund* a dedicated team of under-employed experienced VMS developers to port the top 5 open source apps in each category (however that's defined is up for discussion) which currently don't have VMS versions. How much could that cost? ...a few million dollars..... chicken feed in the whole scheme of things...maybe 200 apps in 1 year in addition to those from commercial ISV's. A dedicated open-source porting team is far better than relying on students in academia who have Okotberfest and girlfriends to attend to when not in class. I, and others, are trying to convince HP to provide direct funding to port community identified important open source apps to VMS, ie. possibly establish a non-for-profit umbrella which co-ordinates the hiring of peer-reviewed under-employed skilled, experienced VMS developers to work full-time on porting apps to VMS, whether it is tools needed to build other open source apps, or the apps themselves. This would be in addition to continued volunteer effort on the same projects.The hired programmers aren't going to get rich, but it would certainly be better than unemployment benefits, or no income at all, and these full-time developers (even if they are full time just for several months here and there) will be able to help these projects make faster progress. Dspace, Firebird are just a couple I'd like to see available. But in some respects HP can't be seen doing that because it will offend some ISV's even though doing so is one of the best ways to jump-start the VMS applications portfolio again. I think of applications I used to use that aren't available on VMS any longer - not open source but if VMS had any market share....Lindo and C-Plex - linear/non-linear optimization packages, just to name two - gone from VMS....lots of others too - even though those packages were born/developed/sold on VMS often exclusively for years. I could *almost* forgive HP for not wanting to sell Alpha/VMS these past 3 years because each server sold obligated HP to real money on server trade-ins to IA64 machines now, but all this did was further convince ISV's that VMS was on the way out because HP was not *SEEN* promoting VMS publicly. So now we have IA64/VMS launched..... I have heard no commitment to funding of ANY advertising/marketing campaign for VMS, have you? I don't understand why printers & PC's get all the advertising and VMS gets none. I don't know why Marcello/Gorham can't seem to get funding for it or whether they even push for it. Please note that the flurry of press releases over the period around the Jan. 18th webcast does not constitute advertising, and barely consititutes marketing. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2005.077 ************************