INFO-VAX Mon, 31 Jan 2005 Volume 2005 : Issue 61 Contents: Re: Comparison of operating systems on wikipedia Re: Comparison of operating systems on wikipedia Re: equiv of LIB$GET_FOREIGN from DCL? Re: equiv of LIB$GET_FOREIGN from DCL? Re: Fortune article and subsequent commentary RE: Fortune article and subsequent commentary Re: Fortune article and subsequent commentary Re: General mount/shadow command? Re: Here's one way to advertise OpenVMS Re: Here's one way to advertise OpenVMS Re: How to get a free iPod? Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! RE: Its the applications dummy !!!! Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Re: MySQL problem Re: MySQL problem Re: MySQL problem Re: MySQL problem Re: MySQL problem Re: MySQL problem Re: MySQL problem ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:09:14 -0500 From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: Comparison of operating systems on wikipedia Message-ID: Keith Cayemberg wrote: > > > In VMS 8.2 Symbolic links or (soft links) will be delivered. These UNIX > file link are akin to logical names on OpenVMS except they will span > across systems. As a result of this the TCP/IP services NFS also has an > understanding of Symbolic Links. DCL will also be enhanced to enable > management of symbolic links. > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/roadmap/openvms_roadmaps.htm > > Were soft links dropped from the 8.2 release? I assume they were, > considering I didn't see them mentioned in the following documents... Symbolic links will be coming with with an add on kit for 8.2. They are not in the main release. Also, with the ODS-5, the case of files is preserved. You can decided on a per process or per application basis if you want to treat the filenames to be case sensitive or case blind. So the answer for ODS-5 is: case_preserved = yes case_blind = option case_sensitive = option It has been that way since at least 7.3-2, possibly earlier. See $help set process/case_lookup -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 2005 14:42:33 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Comparison of operating systems on wikipedia Message-ID: In article , "John E. Malmberg" writes: > It has been that way since at least 7.3-2, In other words, the latest shipping release. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:02:39 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: equiv of LIB$GET_FOREIGN from DCL? Message-ID: <00A3EA65.3431D359@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <41fd082f$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>, "Hein RMS van den Heuvel" writes: > >"Keith A. Lewis" wrote in message >news:cth0ie$n0t$1@newslocal.mitre.org... > >> SYS$COMMON, which is not what I want. I want the procedure to be able to >> tell the difference between the user typing >> @SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]MYDCL >> and >> @SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]MYDCL > >And you probably also want to recognize @SYS$MANAGER:MYDCL >One (the only?) HACK to get this is to use the recall buffer. >I've seen DCL-only scripts to obtained that data through poking in P1 memory >space. http://www.tmesis.com/symbol/using/PREVIOUS_PROCEDURE_NAME.COM; :) -- http://www.ProvN.com for the *best* OpenVMS system security solutions that others only claim to be. -- Cyber-Terrorism (si'-ber tayr'-or-iz-em) n.: The release of, the sale of, or the use of any Micro$oft software product! -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:53:41 -0500 From: "Neil Rieck" Subject: Re: equiv of LIB$GET_FOREIGN from DCL? Message-ID: I "think" I know what you want. When something like this is done in "C", the command line appears in an array of pointers with element "0" usually being the image name, element 1 being parameter #1, etc. Of course the LIB$GET_FOREIGN call provides more information. The closest thing I can think of in DCL is the following script which will only support a maximum of 8 parameters. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html $! $! lib$get_foreign type demo in DCL $! $ say :== write sys$output $ proc = f$environment("procedure") $ proc = f$edit(proc,"UPCASE") $ say "Proc: ",proc $! $ junk1 = f$locate("SYS$COMMON",proc) $ if junk1 .lt. f$length(proc) $ then $ say "in SYS$COMMON $ else $ say "not in SYS$COMMON $ endif $! $ junk1 = f$locate("SYS$SYSTEM",proc) $ if junk1 .lt. f$length(proc) $ then $ say "in SYS$SYSTEM $ else $ say "not in SYS$SYSTEM $ endif $! $ if p1 .eqs. "" $ then $ say "P1 = BLANK" $ else $ say "P1 = ",p1 $ endif $! $ if p2 .eqs. "" $ then $ say "p2 = BLANK" $ else $ say "p2 = ",p2 $ endif $! $! etc. $! Neil> @ dcl_demo.com yada Proc: CSMIS$USER3:[ADMCSM.NEIL]DCL_DEMO.COM;1 not in SYS$COMMON not in SYS$SYSTEM P1 = YADA p2 = BLANK Neil> ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 2005 13:58:09 -0600 From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) Subject: Re: Fortune article and subsequent commentary Message-ID: In article , Z writes: > Rob Young wrote: >> "It could of been prevented." > > ... could HAVE been. > > Geez. Doesn't noone speek English no more? Yeah - realized that after I sent it. But if you say little or are terse in what you say, little chance of error. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:31:15 -0500 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Fortune article and subsequent commentary Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@comcast.net]=20 > Sent: January 30, 2005 12:59 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Fortune article and subsequent commentary >=20 [snip ..] >=20 > 3. The VMS customer base has seen extensive attrition in the years > since 1994. Although the "official" counts do not reflect=20 > this, the OEM > base has numbers indicating their loss of VMS customers to alternate > platforms. VMS sites outside of the Fortune 1000 have all but > disappeared. VMS profits now stand at roughly half of their previously > reported values. >=20 Well sure, as long as you do not count financial, manufacturing, telecommunications, transportation, health industry Customers. Cust's like IBM, Intel, Motorola, AMD, Cerner, numerous Banks and Stock Exchanges I guess do not count eh? > 4. Very few, if any; however, the net gain is a very negative number. > Many of the applications once available for VMS are no longer relevant > as character-cell user interfaces have been largely supplanted by > web-browser type interfaces and client-server applications using > (mostly) Windows for the client-side GUI, and for most=20 > applications, the > users have indicated a preference for consistency in the user=20 > interface > and management and character of the server-side. Thus, in=20 > great measure, > Windows and UN*X systems and software have supplanted VMS systems and > applications. So why you think GUI interfaces to existing applications do not exist or can not be put in place? GUI's to existing applications can be put in place for a very small fraction of what it takes to replace, test and implement entire new solutions. Or perhaps you do not think that ROI is not on the minds of med-big Cust's and that they all madly rush to the OS of the day, throw away 10-15-20 years of investment just because of something they read in magazines? Also, why are you are not counting Java applications? How many Java applications are out there today? > 5. As stated in 4, above, the net gain is a very negative number. See answer to 4. =20 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:32:15 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Fortune article and subsequent commentary Message-ID: <41FD8A9F.FE4DF053@comcast.net> "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@comcast.net] > > Sent: January 30, 2005 12:59 PM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: Fortune article and subsequent commentary > > > > [snip ..] > > > > > 3. The VMS customer base has seen extensive attrition in the years > > since 1994. Although the "official" counts do not reflect > > this, the OEM > > base has numbers indicating their loss of VMS customers to alternate > > platforms. VMS sites outside of the Fortune 1000 have all but > > disappeared. VMS profits now stand at roughly half of their previously > > reported values. > > > > Well sure, as long as you do not count List the number of firms world-wide in the classes/industries you mention: > financial, manufacturing, > telecommunications, transportation, health industry Customers. How many of each outside of the 10,000 largest companies do we find under each heading? > Cust's > like IBM How many IBM's are there in the world? >, Intel> How many Intel's are there in the world? >, Motorola How many Motorola's are there in the world? >, AMD How many AMD's are there in the world? >, Cerner How many Cerner's are there in the world? ...IDX's? >, numerous Banks and Stock > Exchanges How many Stock Exchanges are there in the world? > I guess do not count eh? Is the total up to 411,000 yet? You're still talking only about the Fortune 1000. Where do we find the remaining 410,000? What am *I* talking about? How many tens of thousands of "small" to medium-size businesses are there that were previously VMS shops, now lost to alternate platforms that can never be recovered due to cost-to-acquire and stealth marketing? Are there *ANY* other questions? > > 4. Very few, if any; however, the net gain is a very negative number. > > Many of the applications once available for VMS are no longer relevant > > as character-cell user interfaces have been largely supplanted by > > web-browser type interfaces and client-server applications using > > (mostly) Windows for the client-side GUI, and for most > > applications, the > > users have indicated a preference for consistency in the user > > interface > > and management and character of the server-side. Thus, in > > great measure, > > Windows and UN*X systems and software have supplanted VMS systems and > > applications. > > So why you think GUI interfaces to existing applications do not exist or > can not be put in place? See other discussions in this forum on the topic of ISV motivation. > GUI's to existing applications can be put in > place for a very small fraction of what it takes to replace, test and > implement entire new solutions. ...given certain pre-requisites; otherwise, you're looking at total rewrites from the ground up. I believe I can still put you in touch with a local firm that still does their own character-cell app. development in DIBOL (VAX DIBOL) on a small VAX and then VESTs the .EXE's to Alpha (nothing big - departmental class machines). > Or perhaps you do not think that ROI is not on the minds of med-big > Cust's and that they all madly rush to the OS of the day, throw away > 10-15-20 years of investment just because of something they read in > magazines? I believe that is what we have seen these past 10+ years, yes, as documented in the trade and financial media. What part of any of that which has been published over the years, or can be seen industry- and world-wide today is/was in any way ambiguous? > Also, why are you are not counting Java applications? How many Java > applications are out there today? Outside of browser-land, only *ONE* that I know of - some P.O.S. called WEBES (was foisted upon us to replace both ANALYZE/ERROR and DIAGNOSE). If you have other examples, here's your chance to break the "stealth marketing" mold and go public! Remember to include those app.'s that are in use by the companies that are still running VAXes at V5.5-2 because that's where their key ISVs abandonded them *AND* are also in use by the Fortune 10 on GS1280 class or higher. (Dunno if you've noticed, but Java app. performance on Alpha is only slightly less abysmal than something that some Cerner sites may be familiar with, but will not be otherwise mentioned/discussed here.) > > 5. As stated in 4, above, the net gain is a very negative number. > > See answer to 4. See response to answer to 4. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:04:03 +0000 (UTC) From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) Subject: Re: General mount/shadow command? Message-ID: In article <1107109360.293989.94640@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, tadamsmar@yahoo.com writes: >I get the impression that you know less about >shadowing than I do. Care to explain ? >I think they disks are mounted by virtue of being >specified as a value on the /SHADOW qualifier. And the point is ? >I don't think that it is possible to MOUNT them >directly and also add them to a shadow set. So >you don't get to specify a logical on the MOUNT >command, since you cannot use them as the >target of a MOUNT command. Who said this ? I said don't use a logical for the mount command. You only need one logical name at all. For the shadowset. And this you define implicitely with the MOUNT command. That is all. Conclusio: Use a MOUNT command with real physical device names to get not only a shadowset, but also a (ever the same) virtual/logical name for it. -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:35:38 GMT From: "John Vottero" Subject: Re: Here's one way to advertise OpenVMS Message-ID: "John Smith" wrote in message news:QsWdnf8IHs5qW2bcRVn-jA@igs.net... > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=317&item=5951626613 > &rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > That location would work better for an O/S that "goes down often". :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:08:18 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Here's one way to advertise OpenVMS Message-ID: <41FD9312.E6B10F9@comcast.net> John Vottero wrote: > > "John Smith" wrote in message > news:QsWdnf8IHs5qW2bcRVn-jA@igs.net... > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=317&item=5951626613 > > &rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > > > That location would work better for an O/S that "goes down often". :) ...or perhaps (shall we say) "jitter" could be worked into something about stability. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 2005 13:24:08 -0800 From: usenet69@hotmail.com Subject: Re: How to get a free iPod? Message-ID: <1107120248.908734.198760@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Does it really work? www.urine-pimp.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:46:20 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Message-ID: <41FD2B7C.C6E21450@comcast.net> John Smith wrote: > > robert kas wrote: > > Ok enough give it up All in One and the VAX aren't coming back . > > Save up buy a RX2600 and write some applications. > > > > Without HP advertising VMS heavily, > no sane ISV (commercial enterprise in it for the money), > who isn't already a part of the VMS market (and hasn't already decided to > exit this market), > won't be writing apps for VMS. > > Where's the growth prospects to justify the investment? Marcello's 10-15% > per annum on an installed base (Alpha and Itanic only please) that probably > numbers 250-300,000 machines (most of the balance of the mythical 411,000 > systems are most likely VAX systems stuck at 5.5-2). > > How many accounting apps could be sold on VMS? Probably a lot it companies > were willing to think that VMS was a viable os for them, but it's got to be > more than just the ISV promoting the os, afterall ISV means just > that.....independent software vendor, not os vendor. Then again, that could also be viewed as empowering for the ISV. Applications still sell platforms. The trick is to sell applications, even mundane ones, on "killer" platforms (secure, reliable, etc.) and make *THAT* stick in the prospect's mind. Perhaps imagery like dollars spinning down a toilet with the words "downtime due to viruses and trojans" boldly emblazoned across it would create a lasting impression. As has been said time and time again, "it's the marketing!". -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:58:47 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Message-ID: <41FD2E66.E9A8855D@comcast.net> bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > > this will only happen if you get VMS out of the hands of a company that > doesn't want to be in the OS business ... it will take a dedicated > buyer of VMS to bring back apps Be careful about that. Bringing back app.'s that can't be "web enabled" may be somewhat limiting to the venture. > and destroy the unix/linux/windoze > market with a superior os ... I don't see that as necessary. Simply competing will be enough. When word gets out about how much companies are cutting downtime losses, that will make a major difference. > the apps gap can be quickly made up buy > purchases or mergers ... one nice one would be with Process Software, > where TCPware would nicely replace ucx, and where pmdf and precisemail > would give vms good mail apps ... Multinet is needed for Oracle support. Good thoughts, but let's not stop there. We need an exchange replacement (the desktop is another battle ground, don't go there just yet) for group stuff like calendaring and such. There's at least one out there, though the name/vendor escapes me just now. SWS will have to be brought up to parity with the competition. Anti-virus software will be needed to protect those WhieBloze clients, also, in so far as that's even possible. Great potential exists for the bold-hearted. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:12:17 -0500 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Its the applications dummy !!!! Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@comcast.net]=20 > Sent: January 30, 2005 1:59 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! >=20 [snip..] > Good thoughts, but let's not stop there. >=20 > We need an exchange replacement (the desktop is another battle ground, > don't go there just yet) for group stuff like calendaring and such. > There's at least one out there, though the name/vendor escapes me just > now. >=20 Fyi - opportunity to consider for those former ALL-IN-1 types, is VMS specific ISV add-on's to the following VMS Email solution - which by the way, apparently allows Cust's to continue to use Outlook as email clients- Stalker Announces OpenVMS Version - Secure Messaging Alternative to Exchange [and nice migration path for Office Server Customers or perhaps Customers who want 64bit Email platform with no server viruses, worms, monthly security patches etc etc. -km] http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=3D04/12/02/3371441 http://www.stalker.com/content/download.htm (scroll down to see OpenVMS Alpha and Itanium versions available for download) "Posted Thursday December 02 2004 @ 08:16AM EST =09 Stalker Software has just announced the release of the OpenVMS beta for their CommuniGate Pro Integrated Communications server. The Beta period will run through to January 15, 2005. The product is available for OpenVMS on Alpha, and IA64 (Itanium2) platforms.=20 Stalker Software has released an OpenVMS beta version of the CommuniGate Pro messaging server which supports: - Email - Calendaring - Clustering - Secure Instant Messaging - VoIP - Video Conferencing - Remote Desktop - Application Sharing and more... [snip..] Latest Stalker release: http://www.stalker.com/content/news_article_01252005.html "MILL VALLEY, Calif., (January 25, 2005) - Stalker Software, the technology leader in e-mail, collaboration, and real-time communication solutions, today announced the port of its flagship product, CommuniGate Pro, to HP OpenVMS on the HP Integrity server platform. [snip..] "OpenVMS has been the core of environments that require rock solid reliability. High-availability, scalability, and performance as well as nearly impenetrable security are the hallmarks of this legendary operating system. For over 25 years, OpenVMS has maintained a strong presence in such industries as financial services, telecommunications, healthcare, manufacturing and government." [snip..] Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 "OpenVMS has always had integrity .. Now, Integrity has OpenVMS .." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:29:04 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Message-ID: <1107116282.aef1efce2450be6038f2edf6f81f27b9@teranews> bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > market with a superior os ... the apps gap can be quickly made up buy > purchases or mergers ... one nice one would be with Process Software, > where TCPware would nicely replace ucx, and where pmdf and precisemail > would give vms good mail apps ... It is probably more likely to see Process buy VMS from HP than the other way around. Out of curiosity, why did Cisco buy TGV if its core product (Multinet) was then sold to Process ? Was it justa way to hire the two guys ? What did Cisco do with the VAX ? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:50:23 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Message-ID: <1107117564.8832c80439f768677a35292bedb1d654@teranews> David J Dachtera wrote: > The trick is to sell applications, even mundane ones, on "killer" > platforms (secure, reliable, etc.) and make *THAT* stick in the > prospect's mind. Nop. That apple presentation convinced me that you need to sell Killer Apps on a good platform. Consider how APPLE II got started: Visicalc. It made inroads into businesses because that was a revolutionary way to process data/count numbers. Then came IBM with its own spreadsheets and its strong brand name in corporate environments and Apple II faded. Then came the MAC. How did the MAC get its fame ? By introducing desktop publishing. Page Maker was the killer app that made the MAC. Why ? because the platform provided unique services that enabled this totally new concept of desktop publishing. (GUI, fonts, support for postscript printing etc). Right now, Apple is remaking itself with similar killer apps, although they are less revolutionary than before. (the revolution is the feature set at a very very low price). Digital could have leveraged the SWIFT installed base and rewrite ST400 from being a DOG that didn't support clustering into a kiler app that nobody could touch. They told SWIFT to forget about VMS because Digital was moving to Windows. Because the installed base is now very small with not much of prospects for sales, independant ISVs aren't going to sink the millions needed to develop a new SWIFT software, pay to have it certified etc etc unless they get real commitment ($$$$$) from VMS' owner and that owner must have a big stake to ensure that the product sells. Right now, HP doesn't care if I start a new company, develop some software, find no customer and go belly up. They lose nothing. They have no motivation at the high level to make VMS succeed. But if HP were to sink $20 million into redevelopping a SWIFT software, then you bet your ass that HP would sell this as hard as it could. Product placement ? You bet. Buy product placement in the next Mission Impossible (or Jame Bond or Bourne or whatever) where the bad guys try to transfer money from a bank and realise that that bank uses VMS and that thwarts their whole plan because they can't hack into it. Now THAT would be advertising. Everyone has a TCPIP stack. Giving VMS a better TCPIP stack may please exsiting customers, but it won't bring in new ones. But developping a totally new application that doesn't exist eslewhere, and structure it so that it really does require VMS means that customers can only get that killer app on VMS and will buy into VMS for that Killer app, just like IBM-only shops had to get special exceptiosn so their marketing dept could buy Macs to do artwork and desktop publishing. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:01:18 +0000 (UTC) From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) Subject: Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Message-ID: In article <1107116282.aef1efce2450be6038f2edf6f81f27b9@teranews>, JF Mezei writes: >Out of curiosity, why did Cisco buy TGV if its core product (Multinet) >was then sold to Process ? AFAIK, they wanted TN3270 -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:39:58 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Message-ID: <41FD8C6D.D6E83B75@comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > The trick is to sell applications, even mundane ones, on "killer" > > platforms (secure, reliable, etc.) and make *THAT* stick in the > > prospect's mind. > > Nop. That apple presentation convinced me that you need to sell Killer > Apps on a good platform. Depends on the marketing goal. > Consider how APPLE II got started: Visicalc. It made inroads into > businesses because that was a revolutionary way to process data/count > numbers. Then came IBM with its own spreadsheets and its strong brand > name in corporate environments and Apple II faded. Don't forget Access technology's 20/20 spreadsheet for VAX/VMS. Where is *THAT* today, and why? -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:47:27 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Message-ID: <41FD8E2E.DA833F80@comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > > bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > > market with a superior os ... the apps gap can be quickly made up buy > > purchases or mergers ... one nice one would be with Process Software, > > where TCPware would nicely replace ucx, and where pmdf and precisemail > > would give vms good mail apps ... > > It is probably more likely to see Process buy VMS from HP than the other > way around. My intended meaning was that Process might be convinced to join the proposed VMS Consortium and thus be part owner. It's TCP/IP products could then be merged and UCX retired. > Out of curiosity, why did Cisco buy TGV if its core product (Multinet) > was then sold to Process ? Was it justa way to hire the two guys ? Probably looking at being a total solution provider, until they discovered something about VMS. > What > did Cisco do with the VAX ? Probably scrapped with the many thousands of others that have been replaced by inferior platforms with higher TCO and lower ROI, but less cost-to-acquire and implement (read: "less 'sticker shock'") and thus less resistance from the budget lords, purchase authorizors and bean-counters. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:05:05 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Message-ID: <41FD2FE1.B83FC5AB@comcast.net> bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > > if all the former DEC employees plus plus users like us would > all chip in and then the group could secure an investment from some > current big users (cerner) and a few big investors, then vms could be > free to destroy the entire windoze/unix/linux market! VMS doesn't need to "destroy the entire windoze/unix/linux market", IMO. Just competing will be enough. The market will pick up the momentum from that point forward and the formerly immovable will become the unstoppable. > Everyone could > chip in what they could where 1$ would equal 1 share of stock ... I am > sure many former employees would even be willing to work for this new > company ... is anyone doing this? The trick is for the smallest investors to have the largest say in the operation of the venture. If the largest investors acquire control, VMS may not go where the market needs it to go, rather it will end up going where the largest investors want to take it for their own reasons, which may not synergize well with the rest of the market. Sort of where VMS is now: I'm sure "stealth marketing" is not what VMS management wants, its what they are forced into by (insert the conspiracy theory du jour). -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:55:39 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Message-ID: <1107117874.2b76f2af056808568444df75638ede5a@teranews> David J Dachtera wrote: > Sort of where VMS is now: I'm sure "stealth marketing" is not what VMS > management wants, its what they are forced into by (insert the > conspiracy theory du jour). I am not 100% sure of this. I have repeately heard VMS employees here state that advertising may not yield results. Now, we don't know if they are saying this because they truly believe this, or if they just feel the need to defend their employers' policies. You need one of 2 types of people to head VMS: Lou Gerstner who knows he knwos nothing and will surround himself with the right advisors and listen to customers. or Steve Jobs who has a big picture vision and knows his stuff and is very able to convey his vision onto his employees AND customers. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 00:07:36 +0300 From: "work" Subject: Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Message-ID: How much that would be anyway? When I close my eyes sometimes I see GUI looking similar to OS X or something but with VMS inside! ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????: news:1107103164.380902.289470@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > if all the former DEC employees plus plus users like us would > all chip in and then the group could secure an investment from some > current big users (cerner) and a few big investors, then vms could be > free to destroy the entire windoze/unix/linux market! Everyone could > chip in what they could where 1$ would equal 1 share of stock ... I am > sure many former employees would even be willing to work for this new > company ... is anyone doing this? > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 00:06:35 GMT From: Beach Runner Subject: Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > David J Dachtera wrote: > > >>Sort of where VMS is now: I'm sure "stealth marketing" is not what VMS >>management wants, its what they are forced into by (insert the >>conspiracy theory du jour). > > > I am not 100% sure of this. I have repeately heard VMS employees here > state that advertising may not yield results. OK, I'm a stealth Dec employee. The number 1 complaint I have talking to system administrators is their bosses don't see any VMS advertisements, so they don't believe in it. They also say it's the best product out there. > > Now, we don't know if they are saying this because they truly believe > this, or if they just feel the need to defend their employers' policies. > > You need one of 2 types of people to head VMS: > > Lou Gerstner who knows he knwos nothing and will surround himself with > the right advisors and listen to customers. > > or > > Steve Jobs who has a big picture vision and knows his stuff and is very > able to convey his vision onto his employees AND customers. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 00:07:04 GMT From: Beach Runner Subject: Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Message-ID: work wrote: > How much that would be anyway? > > When I close my eyes sometimes I see GUI looking similar to OS X or > something but with VMS inside! > Why would HP want a better product competing against them? > > ???????/???????? ? ???????? ?????????: > news:1107103164.380902.289470@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > >>if all the former DEC employees plus plus users like us would >>all chip in and then the group could secure an investment from some >>current big users (cerner) and a few big investors, then vms could be >>free to destroy the entire windoze/unix/linux market! Everyone could >>chip in what they could where 1$ would equal 1 share of stock ... I am >>sure many former employees would even be willing to work for this new >>company ... is anyone doing this? >> > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:55:48 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Message-ID: <41FD9023.6D273C0B@comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > > Sort of where VMS is now: I'm sure "stealth marketing" is not what VMS > > management wants, its what they are forced into by (insert the > > conspiracy theory du jour). > > I am not 100% sure of this. I have repeately heard VMS employees here > state that advertising may not yield results. Consider the source. You're talking about rocking some folks' boat in a major way. Enthusiasm, while an entirely realistic expectation, may not be the universal response, in view. Neither might be optimism, for that matter, for the same reason. > Now, we don't know if they are saying this because they truly believe > this, or if they just feel the need to defend their employers' policies. Perhaps both, plus the above mentioned. > You need one of 2 types of people to head VMS: > > Lou Gerstner who knows he knwos nothing and will surround himself with > the right advisors and listen to customers. > > or > > Steve Jobs who has a big picture vision and knows his stuff and is very > able to convey his vision onto his employees AND customers. ...or perhaps some combination of the two. O.k. So, we have an idea who we're looking for. Suggestions, anyone? -- David J Dachtera Unofficial Chief Coordinator, OpenVMS Consortium Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:03:27 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Message-ID: <41FD91EF.A611F89C@comcast.net> Beach Runner wrote: > > work wrote: > > > How much that would be anyway? > > > > When I close my eyes sometimes I see GUI looking similar to OS X or > > something but with VMS inside! > > > > Why would HP want a better product competing against them? How many GS1280 class machines run OS-X or anything close to it? Are there any other questions? -- David J Dachtera Unofficial Coordinator, OpenVMS Consortium Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:01:52 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Message-ID: <41FD918F.E7EC5791@comcast.net> Beach Runner wrote: > > JF Mezei wrote: > > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > > > > >>Sort of where VMS is now: I'm sure "stealth marketing" is not what VMS > >>management wants, its what they are forced into by (insert the > >>conspiracy theory du jour). > > > > > > I am not 100% sure of this. I have repeately heard VMS employees here > > state that advertising may not yield results. > > OK, I'm a stealth Dec employee. The number 1 complaint I have > talking to system administrators is their bosses don't see any VMS > advertisements, so they don't believe in it. They also say it's the > best product out there. I am (and have long been) of the firm belief that this poster's experience represents the rule and not the exception. FWIW... -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 04:45:08 +0100 From: Keith Cayemberg Subject: Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Message-ID: <41fda9c6$0$18557$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> David J Dachtera wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: > >>David J Dachtera wrote: >> >> >>>Sort of where VMS is now: I'm sure "stealth marketing" is not what VMS >>>management wants, its what they are forced into by (insert the >>>conspiracy theory du jour). >> >>I am not 100% sure of this. I have repeately heard VMS employees here >>state that advertising may not yield results. > > > Consider the source. You're talking about rocking some folks' boat in a > major way. Enthusiasm, while an entirely realistic expectation, may not > be the universal response, in view. Neither might be optimism, for that > matter, for the same reason. > > >>Now, we don't know if they are saying this because they truly believe >>this, or if they just feel the need to defend their employers' policies. > > > Perhaps both, plus the above mentioned. > > >>You need one of 2 types of people to head VMS: >> >>Lou Gerstner who knows he knwos nothing and will surround himself with >>the right advisors and listen to customers. >> >>or >> >>Steve Jobs who has a big picture vision and knows his stuff and is very >>able to convey his vision onto his employees AND customers. > > > ....or perhaps some combination of the two. > > O.k. So, we have an idea who we're looking for. > > Suggestions, anyone? > I hear Gerstner has been in retirement for a couple years, maybe he's getting board of it and could use a challenge. I also hear Jobs will work (apply his legendary reality distortion field) for a $1 per year salary. So why not both? :-) Cheers! K.C. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:08:43 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Message-ID: <1107143835.b34589eea00fdc46907405550d67db59@teranews> Keith Cayemberg wrote: > I hear Gerstner has been in retirement for a couple years, maybe he's > getting board of it and could use a challenge. I also hear Jobs will > work (apply his legendary reality distortion field) for a $1 per year > salary. So why not both? :-) Gertsner is retired. He might be a good coach for a new up and coming CEO. Jobs is busy enough withg Apple. Now, had Digital given VMS to Apple at a time when Apple was struggling to find a new kernel for its OS, then it would have been a great fit. Too late now. One must find a new Gerstner or Jobs. Someone with vision, charisma. And you need a good salesmen. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:16:49 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: MySQL problem Message-ID: <41FD32A0.971F9854@comcast.net> issinoho wrote: > > Nigel Barker wrote: > > On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:21:21 +0000, issinoho wrote: > > > > > >>Am trying to get phpmyadmin up and running - has anyone done this? Are > >>there any gotchas form the outset? > > > > > > It's been a while but AFAICR it just worked out of the box. It's just pure PHP. > > > > -- > > Nigel Barker > > Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur > There seems to be an issue with filenames. Unzipping the package > produces files eith underscores rather than dots, phpmyadmin uses > multiple dots in filenames. VMS is unable to support 3 dots in a > filename it appears. Oohhh - careful, there! VMS support for free-form filenames requires ODS-5. ZIP/UNZIP support for free-form filenames requires newer versions than are currently common "in the wild". -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:27:08 -0500 From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: MySQL problem Message-ID: David J Dachtera wrote: > > VMS support for free-form filenames requires ODS-5. > > ZIP/UNZIP support for free-form filenames requires newer versions than > are currently common "in the wild". Is there something wrong with the versions included with the latest GNV? -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:45:01 -0500 From: Ken Robinson Subject: Re: MySQL problem Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050130154401.04049c80@mail.patmedia.net> At 03:27 PM 1/30/2005, John E. Malmberg wrote: >David J Dachtera wrote: >>VMS support for free-form filenames requires ODS-5. >>ZIP/UNZIP support for free-form filenames requires newer versions than >>are currently common "in the wild". > >Is there something wrong with the versions included with the latest GNV? Actually, using GNV to expand the zip file is the best way to go. That's how I did it the last time. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:38:15 +0000 From: issinoho Subject: Re: MySQL problem Message-ID: <1107124701.33286.0@iris.uk.clara.net> Ken Robinson wrote: > At 03:27 PM 1/30/2005, John E. Malmberg wrote: > >> David J Dachtera wrote: >> >>> VMS support for free-form filenames requires ODS-5. >>> ZIP/UNZIP support for free-form filenames requires newer versions than >>> are currently common "in the wild". >> >> >> Is there something wrong with the versions included with the latest GNV? > > > Actually, using GNV to expand the zip file is the best way to go. > That's how I did it the last time. > > Ken Can confirm that i *AM* using an ODS-5 disk and unzipping with INFO-ZIP 5.32. Is there a better alternative? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:01:15 -0500 From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: MySQL problem Message-ID: issinoho wrote: > > Can confirm that i *AM* using an ODS-5 disk and unzipping with INFO-ZIP > 5.32. Is there a better alternative? EAGLE> unzip :== $gnu:[bin]unzip EAGLE> unzip -? UnZip 5.42 of 14 January 2001, by Info-ZIP. For more details see: unzip -v. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:32:57 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: MySQL problem Message-ID: <41FD8AC9.1698326E@comcast.net> "John E. Malmberg" wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > > > VMS support for free-form filenames requires ODS-5. > > > > ZIP/UNZIP support for free-form filenames requires newer versions than > > are currently common "in the wild". > > Is there something wrong with the versions included with the latest GNV? Haven't tried them; however, if the user uses an older version, ... -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:36:56 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: MySQL problem Message-ID: <41FD8BB8.3EABF5AA@comcast.net> "John E. Malmberg" wrote: > > issinoho wrote: > > > > Can confirm that i *AM* using an ODS-5 disk and unzipping with INFO-ZIP > > 5.32. Is there a better alternative? > > EAGLE> unzip :== $gnu:[bin]unzip > EAGLE> unzip -? > UnZip 5.42 of 14 January 2001, by Info-ZIP. For more details see: unzip -v. Is not the "current" UNZIP V5.5x or so? Hunter's freeware area (http://vms.process.com/fileserv-software.html) lists the current UNZIP as V5.51 dated 22-May-2004 (http://vms.process.com/scripts/fileserv/fileserv.com?UNZIP). -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2005.061 ************************