INFO-VAX Sun, 30 Jan 2005 Volume 2005 : Issue 60 Contents: Re: ANAL/MEDIA/EXER on a modern disk? Re: Clarify: What's going on with VMS on Itanium and other xx86xx chips chipschi Re: CLUSTER DECNET LAT Load-Balancing Re: CLUSTER DECNET LAT Load-Balancing Re: Comparison of operating systems on wikipedia Re: Comparison of operating systems on wikipedia Re: Comparison of operating systems on wikipedia Re: Comparison of operating systems on wikipedia Re: DCL script for a dummy like me ... Re: DCL-W-OKTAB? Re: DCL-W-OKTAB? Re: equiv of LIB$GET_FOREIGN from DCL? Re: equiv of LIB$GET_FOREIGN from DCL? Re: Fortune article and subsequent commentary Re: Fortune article and subsequent commentary Re: Fortune article and subsequent commentary Re: General mount/shadow command? Re: Here's one way to advertise OpenVMS Its the applications dummy !!!! Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Re: MySQL problem Re: MySQL problem Re: MySQL problem Re: MySQL problem Re: MySQL problem Re: PDFs for HP C docs Re: Pls Help with X over TCPIP ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:35:20 +0800 From: prep@prep.synonet.com Subject: Re: ANAL/MEDIA/EXER on a modern disk? Message-ID: <874qh1r813.fsf@prep.synonet.com> kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) writes: > A long time ago in a galaxy far far away... > We used to be able to test and exercise new disks (or destroy > sensitive data from old disks) with the ANALYZE/MEDIA/EXERCISE > command, or way back in time, the BAD utility under RSX. Alas with > modern "smart" devices, these no longer function. If my disks were > in an HSx array, I could run DILX to accomplish this purpose. Yeah, one of the `we are here to help you' items. It is not quite 20 years since I asked DEC to fix that. > But what do you do these days to beat up new or used disks when they > are just JBOD drives on some random SCSI controller? ANAL/DISK/READ > only hits used blocks, and doesn't do any writes. INIT/ERASE doesn't > seem like what I'm looking for either. Create a file that fills the disk, then del/era it. Doing it on a HSx is good, it then does the work, not your CPU! -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 22:27:11 +0800 From: prep@prep.synonet.com Subject: Re: Clarify: What's going on with VMS on Itanium and other xx86xx chips chipschi Message-ID: <87ekg5pr28.fsf@prep.synonet.com> JF Mezei writes: > The failure of IA64 won't necessarily end its life. But it may be > used as an excuse to end its life. Look at Tru64. It was doing well, > but because they decided that the *features* of HP UX could replace > those of Tru64, they didn't feel it necessary to port Tru64 beyond > Alpha. The PHUX over T64 choise is sort of understandable. PHUX has a *HUGE* software base, bigger than any other unix including Solaris. It is also big-endian. Asking for all of that to be ported to a little-endian T64-II would not go down well with the ISVs. T64 is WAY better than the rest IMO, but numbers won. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 22:16:06 +0800 From: prep@prep.synonet.com Subject: Re: CLUSTER DECNET LAT Load-Balancing Message-ID: <87mzutprkp.fsf@prep.synonet.com> alanhathway@gmx.de (Allan Hathaway) writes: > We are using a cluster plus a further OpenVMS computer, at the moment > with DECNET and LAT switched on. In the future we have been told, we > will not be able to use DECNET (because of changes to the networking > cabling in the company - something to do with DECNET cannot do > routing). > What consequences will that have for us? > 1. Is it true, that I then cannot use LAT but must use TCP/IP and > TELNET for all interactive users? > 2. I cannot copy between the cluster and the other OpenVMS computer > with $COPY - I will have to use FTP. Correct? > 3. All Printers with LATSYM must be changed to TELNET-Queues > 4. Various Devices eg. DECServer 200 will not work any more, because > they need to download their software > 5. What happens to Load-Balancing? > Anything else? You may also lose clustering. Are the monkey in you networking section putting up the money to replace the LAT servers, plus the cost of re-configuring and re-testing everything? Yopu are about to eat about $100K to several million, depending on the amount of re-writing and testing you will need to do. Load balamcing is the easy one. What load balancing. You will alos lose any LAT prefered serves, auto login and reliable file transfer at a minimum. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 22:22:17 +0800 From: prep@prep.synonet.com Subject: Re: CLUSTER DECNET LAT Load-Balancing Message-ID: <87is5hprae.fsf@prep.synonet.com> David J Dachtera writes: > JF Mezei wrote: >> Sideline question: >> I know that MOP, LAT and SCS are ethernet based protocols and not >> routable. > Huh? TCP/IP and DECnet are "ethernet based protocols". What are you > trying to say? He is trying to say `LAN protocols'. Although MOP works to adjacent nodes over (almost) any link type. LAT and SCS are LAN only, if you grant DSSI, CIs as LANs. Note that you can drop FDDI in place of ethernet, and almost nothing will notice. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:44:15 +0800 From: prep@prep.synonet.com Subject: Re: Comparison of operating systems on wikipedia Message-ID: <87zmytpt1s.fsf@prep.synonet.com> "John Smith" writes: > Graham Burley wrote: >> Keith Cayemberg wrote: >>> Stable version 8.2 (current release) >> Stable version Too many to list (current is best) > Stable version: ALL ::cought:: Never used 4.0 did you... Unless you count the Fat Owl as `stable' There are reasons for the never use x.0 releases. Though not much for 7.0... or 6.0 I think. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:55:56 +0800 From: prep@prep.synonet.com Subject: Re: Comparison of operating systems on wikipedia Message-ID: <87vf9hpsib.fsf@prep.synonet.com> "Anthony Borla" writes: > "Keith Cayemberg" wrote in message > news:41f6ed35$0$17617$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net... >> Peter Sjoberg wrote: >> > I'm missing one great OS on > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_operating_systems >> > is it anyone who like to add it? >> > > >> Regardless of who makes the update to Wiki, I would suggest >> we discuss in COV what the correct entries to the Tables should >> be. To get us started, I've taken a first crack at filling out the >> tables... > > I just had a look at the page ... a better presented entry than some of the > others [of course this *isn't* a biased viewpoint ;)]. > Further browsing the wikipedia, I happened across the following entry: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_file_systems > In the spirit of current, *positive* efforts, not to mention ensuring more > persons are made aware of OpenVMS and its features, I thought it might be > worth making an entry. > I've made a tentative start, utilising the style Keith used in this thread, > but thought it best to post the [very incomplete] effort and obtain COV > expertise and feedback as I wasn't sure about the answers for some of the > entries. > Also, some issues I think worth considering include: > * Include entries for both ODS-2 and ODS-5 ? And ODS-1 > * Access Control - Include / discuss UIC-based and > ACL-based ? > I hope this starts an interesting and fruitful branch off the current > thread. > Cheers, > Anthony Borla > ---------------------------------------------------------- > *File system* > Creator _Digital Equipment Corporation (now Hewlett Packard)_ > Original Operating system _OpenVMS_ > ODS-2 > *Limits* > Maximum filename length _39 character name, 39 character extension_ > Allowable filename characters _Alphanumeric (uppercase-only), _, -, $_ > Maximum pathname length _255 + 8 x 39 + 39 + 39_ This is an OS thing, not the file system. > Maximum file size _..._ > Maximum volume size _..._ > *Features* > File type metadata _FDL_ > Stores file owner _..._ yes > POSIX file permissions _..._ no, Superset on disk, OS does NOT follow POSIX semantics. > Access control lists _Yes_ > Hard Links _..._ yes, aka aliases, but no link count > Soft Links _..._ defined for ODS-2, but never implemented. > Alternate data stream/resource fork _..._ RMS sematics eg DDIF > Journaling _Yes_ Note the wikki entry is incorrect for soft links. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:11:57 GMT From: "Anthony Borla" Subject: Re: Comparison of operating systems on wikipedia Message-ID: wrote in message news:87vf9hpsib.fsf@prep.synonet.com... > > > > Further browsing the wikipedia, I happened across the > > following entry: > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_file_systems > > > In the spirit of current, *positive* efforts, not to mention > > ensuring more persons are made aware of OpenVMS and its > > features, I thought it might be worth making an entry. > > > I've made a tentative start, utilising the style Keith used in > > this thread, but thought it best to post the [very incomplete] > > effort and obtain COV expertise and feedback as I wasn't > > sure about the answers for some of the entries. > > > Also, some issues I think worth considering include: > > > * Include entries for both ODS-2 and ODS-5 ? > > And ODS-1 > I don't think ODS-1 could be discussed in this entry - another would need to be added. Would it be worth doing this ? Particularly since: * ODS-1 isn't as immediately relevant today as ODS-5 * It's already discussed as part of the wikipedia Files-11 write-up > > > *Limits* > > Maximum filename length _39 character name, 39 > > character extension_ > > Allowable filename characters _Alphanumeric > > (uppercase-only), _, -, $_ > > Maximum pathname length _255 + 8 x 39 + 39 + 39_ > > This is an OS thing, not the file system. > Fair enough. Would it be worth mentioning in a foot note, then, or left alone, given that it makes little practical difference in terms of the comparision ? > > POSIX file permissions _..._ no, Superset on disk, > > OS does NOT follow POSIX semantics. > > This one did trouble me. I searched for detailed information on OpenVMS POSIX-compliance but found nothing. I opted for a [tentative] 'YES' answer based on its similarity to UNIX file permissions [sloppy, I know :(] So, to confirm: * Entry for this category should be 'NO' * Footnote, similar to the same-category NT footnote, could be included ? > > Access control lists _Yes_ > > Hard Links _..._ yes, aka aliases, but no link count > > Soft Links _..._ defined for ODS-2, but never implemented. Ok, so to confirm: * Hard links largely supported; it is these that are known as 'aliases' * Soft links *not supported* > > > > Alternate data stream/resource fork _..._ RMS sematics eg DDIF > > Journaling _Yes_ > Mention of RMS was made in the footnote under 'File Type Metadata'. Should this be changed ? I get the impression that this ['Alternate data stream/resource fork'] category was added to accomodate the Macintosh HFS and HFS+ filesystems. > > Note the wikki entry is incorrect for soft links. > Though, hopefully, not for long :) ! Cheers, Anthony Borla ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:32:30 +0100 From: Keith Cayemberg Subject: Re: Comparison of operating systems on wikipedia Message-ID: <41fce1f0$0$18552$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> > >>Note the wikki entry is incorrect for soft links. >> > > > Though, hopefully, not for long :) ! > > Cheers, > > Anthony Borla > > Is that certain? In the OpenVMS Roadmap just released you will find the following in the PPT Notes for slide 15. In VMS 8.2 Symbolic links or (soft links) will be delivered. These UNIX file link are akin to logical names on OpenVMS except they will span across systems. As a result of this the TCP/IP services NFS also has an understanding of Symbolic Links. DCL will also be enhanced to enable management of symbolic links. http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/roadmap/openvms_roadmaps.htm Were soft links dropped from the 8.2 release? I assume they were, considering I didn't see them mentioned in the following documents... OpenVMS 8.2 new features and benefits web site http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/integrity/v82features.html HP OpenVMS v8.2 new features and infrastructure enhancements - PDF http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/whitepapers/openvms82_features.pdf HP OpenVMS v8.2 SPD - PDF http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/XAV12X/XAV12XPF.PDF Cheers! Keith Cayemberg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:38:41 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: DCL script for a dummy like me ... Message-ID: <41FD1BA1.7D6ED544@comcast.net> Beach Runner wrote: > > May I recommend a book, writing real programs in DCL. > I think you can get in on Amazon. Digital Press. I already have it. See also: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:59:37 +0000 (UTC) From: gartmann@non.immunbio.mpg.de.sens (Christoph Gartmann) Subject: Re: DCL-W-OKTAB? Message-ID: In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >So you need a SET VERIFY at the start of the command procedure for object >WWW_INIT. Perhaps there is one already present under the control of some >logical name. Unfortunately it is not that simple. I looked at the stuff of the WWWserver and realized, that WWW_INIT is some logical that gets defined and undefined and redefined and so on. I cannot figure out, what part of the code is producing this error :-( That's why I am looking at the error code. Regards, Christoph Gartmann -- Max-Planck-Institut fuer Phone : +49-761-5108-464 Fax: -452 Immunbiologie Postfach 1169 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de D-79011 Freiburg, Germany http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 2005 10:37:47 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: DCL-W-OKTAB? Message-ID: In article , gartmann@non.immunbio.mpg.de.sens (Christoph Gartmann) writes: > In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >>So you need a SET VERIFY at the start of the command procedure for object >>WWW_INIT. Perhaps there is one already present under the control of some >>logical name. > > Unfortunately it is not that simple. I looked at the stuff of the WWWserver and > realized, that WWW_INIT is some logical that gets defined and undefined and > redefined and so on. I cannot figure out, what part of the code is producing > this error :-( That's why I am looking at the error code. Certainly invocation of that file is susceptible to VMS auditing for successful file access. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:11:55 -0500 From: "Hein RMS van den Heuvel" Subject: Re: equiv of LIB$GET_FOREIGN from DCL? Message-ID: <41fd082f$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com> "Keith A. Lewis" wrote in message news:cth0ie$n0t$1@newslocal.mitre.org... > SYS$COMMON, which is not what I want. I want the procedure to be able to > tell the difference between the user typing > @SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]MYDCL > and > @SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]MYDCL And you probably also want to recognize @SYS$MANAGER:MYDCL One (the only?) HACK to get this is to use the recall buffer. I've seen DCL-only scripts to obtained that data through poking in P1 memory space. > The current workaround is to have identical copies of the procedure at all > points on the searchlist, but I'd rather not have to remember to copy it > every time I add to the list. I would probably just hardcode my way out. If you see sys$common[sysmgr], replace by sys$manager Obviously that would fail for those case where a node specific procedure was called while a common one was available. fwiw, Hein. > > --Keith Lewis klewis {at} mitre.org > The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:35:28 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: equiv of LIB$GET_FOREIGN from DCL? Message-ID: <41FD28F0.40B1675B@comcast.net> "Keith A. Lewis" wrote: > > I have a DCL procedure that needs to know where it was invoked from. It > currently uses F$ENVIRONMENT("PROCEDURE"), but there's a problem with > searchlists. For example, if the procedure was invoked by > @SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]MYDCL > but it really lives in SYS$COMMON, F$ENVIRONMENT("PROCEDURE") will point to > SYS$COMMON, which is not what I want. I want the procedure to be able to > tell the difference between the user typing > @SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]MYDCL > and > @SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]MYDCL I'd be curious to know why that's more important than where the file was actually found. If the user had typed @SYS$SPECIFIC:[SYSMGR]MYDCL, the response would likely have been: %DCL-E-OPENIN, error opening SYS$SPECIFIC:[SYSMGR]MYDCL.COM; as input -RMS-E-FNF, file not found -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:58:57 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Fortune article and subsequent commentary Message-ID: <41FD2061.40C6872E@comcast.net> Rob Young wrote: > > In article <41FB0726.18CFC6F6@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: > > Rob Young wrote: > >> > >> In article , Bill Todd writes: > >> > Top billing at OpenVMS.org today has been a Fortune article on the > >> > failure of the HP/Compaq merger and follow-up industry commentary. > >> > While the former is of course no news here (they do give a well-deserved > >> > ovation to Walter Hewlett for the accuracy of his calls during the > >> > merger battle, and could have created a great one-two punch by observing > >> > that Carly's abject failure to live up to the expectations she herself > >> > set mirrors that of Itanic), one statement in an interview with Rob > >> > Enderle ("The interview is an inside look at the thinking of one of HP's > >> > trusted confidants") stands out: > >> > > >> > "HP's weakness is in having so many operating systems. They're trying to > >> > exit from the operating system business all together." > >> > > >> > While that too was clear to at least some of us, others seem to have > >> > been reluctant to accept it. > >> > > >> > >> Say it... I know you just wanna pucker your lips and say it: > >> > >> "Death of VMS" > > > > Ain't it a bitch living in total denial? > > > > Ha. > > Go back 10 years - here is a comp.os.vms headline: > > "Death of VMS" Suggestion: Please drop the words "whine", "whiners" and "whining" from your vocabulary. These have been over-used to the point where their impact serves only to dissolve your credibility. 10 years back- that'd be 1994. Since then ... (answers to these below the sig. - don't cheat, get the answers then see if you're correct) 1. What new platforms does VMS run on? 2. ...for total gain of how many platforms currently in commercial production? 3. What growth in the VMS customer base has been seen since 1994? 4. What new applications have been ported from Windows or UNIX to VMS? 5. ...for a total growth in applications for VMS of how much? See the answers below the .sig. If you disgaree with any of the correct answers, remember to cite specific evidence in your rebuttal. > Tell you what, when/if they put the knife in VMS Already happened. Google for "alphacide". > (and sure - you > have my permission to prattle on about Death of VMS must be > a satisfying thing somehow), you can trot out: "See Rob , told you!" ...as did most of the VMS customer base. What's your point? > Guess what? Big Deal. You prattle on about something long > enough and 25 years later it happens, so what? Gee - I guess foresight is truly valueless, eh? > "It could of been prevented." Absolutely. All it takes is common-sense, business acumen, ... all characteristics one never sees among the management folks related to these debacles. > Sure. And there are whiners somewhere that are still upset > that RSX is no longer being developed. Yeah. Probably people who operate sensitive (not necessarily commercial) installations on little or no budget, protect millions of lives and/or trillions of dollars, ... y'know, nothing of any consequence. > I'm sure someone > is very upset that GM knifed the Oldsmobile division too and > "that too could have been prevented!" A simple name change would likely have sufficed. > Its about business and > a ton of armchair quarterbacks always want to make it better > and sure some things are probably done wrong. Big Deal. Yeah - who cares about billions in lost profits, billions more in lost on-going revenue, not to mention stock prices, dividends, ... y'know, all that unimportant econmic mumbo-jumbo that no one cares about. > But today, you can bet there are many reasons to keep developing > VMS , Really? Care to name a few? > as others point out VMS was an easy early-on keeper in > merging HP/Compaq, etc. Cinderella was a "keeper" too, as I recall. (Where's VMS's "fairy-godmother"?) > But no explaining, no amount of positive > news is going to sway some people. They've been convinced for > 10-15 years now that VMS is dying. You mean, all those lost sites, scrapped VAXes and Alphas, and the Windows and Un*X systems that replaced them were just a bad dream???!!! Say, "HALLELUJAH", Brothers! It's been just a bad dream. > It is truly comical thinking > about how some trot out "Death of VMS" as a mantra year after year > after year. Yeah. After all, when your profits are half of what they once were, how that can POSSIBLY be characterized as "dying"???!!! > And funnier still is folks that purchase that same > mantra from Gartner and Aberdeen and the lot. You wonder if > Gartner/Aberdeen ever feel a bit sheepish? Depends how much they're being paid to keep trotting out that garbage. I fully expect to someday see this in Merriam-Webster's Unabridged: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=pollyanna&x=17&y=15 Pronunciation: "pä-lE-'a-n& Function: noun Etymology: Pollyanna, heroine of the novel Pollyanna (1913) by Eleanor Porter died 1920 American fiction writer : a person characterized by irrepressible optimism and a tendency to find good in everything. See also, "Rob Young". -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page Answers: 1. Itanic. The IA32 port was never completed. An x86-64 port has yet to emerge. 2. Zero. VAXes are no longer manfuactured. Alphas are still being built, but no new Alpha CPU chips are being fabricated. Itanic has not yet achieved "commercial" acceptance due to its arguable future. 3. The VMS customer base has seen extensive attrition in the years since 1994. Although the "official" counts do not reflect this, the OEM base has numbers indicating their loss of VMS customers to alternate platforms. VMS sites outside of the Fortune 1000 have all but disappeared. VMS profits now stand at roughly half of their previously reported values. 4. Very few, if any; however, the net gain is a very negative number. Many of the applications once available for VMS are no longer relevant as character-cell user interfaces have been largely supplanted by web-browser type interfaces and client-server applications using (mostly) Windows for the client-side GUI, and for most applications, the users have indicated a preference for consistency in the user interface and management and character of the server-side. Thus, in great measure, Windows and UN*X systems and software have supplanted VMS systems and applications. 5. As stated in 4, above, the net gain is a very negative number. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:03:56 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Fortune article and subsequent commentary Message-ID: <41FD218C.F17DD07B@comcast.net> Dave Froble wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > > If there isn't already a movement afoot to buy VMS away from Carly's > > successor(s), what are we waiting for? > > We're waiting for them to want to get rid of it so bad that they'll throw in: > > All the Digital names, patents, everything. > Enough money to run things for 5 years. > > If we cannot re-start DEC with 5 years funding, then maybe it isn't viable. Well, don't be so anxious to "restart DEC". There was a lot of good there, but alot that needed fixing as well. ...like the kind of mentality that would allow the events we've seen that brought us to where we are today. Let's get VMS back on its commercial feet first. There's plenty of potential user base out there, presently untapped by VMS. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:05:29 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Fortune article and subsequent commentary Message-ID: <41FD21E9.1A52E827@comcast.net> Robert Deininger wrote: > > In article , "John Smith" > wrote: > > ... > > >Perhaps a well reasoned, well written e-mail, supplying information is in > >order. > > Where will you find someone to write that e-mail? Low blow - cold. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 2005 10:22:40 -0800 From: tadamsmar@yahoo.com Subject: Re: General mount/shadow command? Message-ID: <1107109360.293989.94640@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote: > In article <1106763439.812684.98940@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, tadamsmar@yahoo.com writes: > >Up till now all my systems have had disks > >named DKA0 AND DKA100. > > Not that bad. > But referring to the disks without logical names (except in the procedure > where the mount of these disks happen during startup) is bad. > You gain A LOT of flexibility with logical names. eg Virtual (Concealed) disks > > >But we now have some systems with DKB0 > >and DKB100, and I need to generalize > >my command procedures and written > >procedures. I prefer to have all > >the command procedures on all the > >systems to be the same, if possible. > > Thats why there are logicalnames. > And all refer to the same logical names > (which are based on functionality not on physics). > > >These are used to form a shadowset. > > It is no different to a physical disk. The mount command is different. > You need a nonzero allocation class and a shadowing license. That's it. > > >I was wondering if there is a generic > >way to refer to these disks in > > > >the MOUNT/SHADOW= command. > > Do not use logicals in the MOUNT command. > Do use the MOUNT command to create logicals for the volumes (disks). > > You need one single point with knowledge about the real hardware. > Better have it in SYCONFIG.COM than in SYLOGICALS.COM > > >I know that > > > >mount dka0 sx > > > >will allow me to refer to disk$sx, > > Yup. DISK$label is the default logical MOUNT assigns for the disk, > but you can specify the name of the logical yourself as the 3rd parameter > to the mount command. > > >but I typically don't issue mount > >commands for these disks. > > Then better change your method. > or in less aggressive words > WHO does issue mount commands then ? I get the impression that you know less about shadowing than I do. I think they disks are mounted by virtue of being specified as a value on the /SHADOW qualifier. I don't think that it is possible to MOUNT them directly and also add them to a shadow set. So you don't get to specify a logical on the MOUNT command, since you cannot use them as the target of a MOUNT command. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:15:28 +0100 From: Dirk Munk Subject: Re: Here's one way to advertise OpenVMS Message-ID: John Smith wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=317&item=5951626613&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > Now if you could get Carly(tm) to offer this, then it would work !!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 06:46:03 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Its the applications dummy !!!! Message-ID: <1107084897.2644804beeaddbbf43695c2ad881a11f@teranews> I just spent 1:55 watching a REAL web event, the Macworld keynote address. This one worked, wasn't an infinite loop of Carly saying nothing and was very impressive. I still remember an ALL-IN-1 presentation at a DECUS event where the main engineer presented the new index forms that allowed one to scroll through list of documents or any other indexed datasets, and the audience went "wow this is REALLY neat". I still remember when the VMS new features sessions were overcrowded with people listening from the corridor because there was no more room inside. This Apple event reminded me of the good old days of VMS where there were really significant improvements beuing made not only to VMS, but to all the applications that Digital sold with VMS, so you would come out of a DECUS even with complete image of what computers can do for you and your employer. In this event, Steve Jobs spent about 1:20 on software/applications for OS-X. Very little was said about the operating system itself, except for the embedded search feature which cam index documents, pictures, movies etc. (no mention of what was done to the file system to allow this, more on that later) Apple saw application developers deserting to Windows. How did it react ? It decided to fight for that market with its own applications. Faced with same situation, Digital decided to ditch its opwn applications instead of strenghetening them to remain competitive. Apple not only produced its own image and movie editing software, but this is now leeding edge since Apple is the first to support the HDTV format for camcorders, and its software is ready to produce HDTV DVDs once the actual format is agreed upon. A bit like DEC being first to support X.400 email back when it was thought this would take off. The search feature in OS-X is quite interesting. It is notified when a new file is created, deleted or modified and can thereore re-index it and change any stored views. (same applies to email messages) For instance, if you have a search for "Soccer" stored, that stored search is automatically updated if a new document that deals with Soccer is received, so that when you pull up that window, it comes out with up-to-date information. So they must have added hooks into the file system so that the search engine is notified of any file changes. Can ODS-5 do that ? Oh, and the MAC has had long and strange file names since 1984. ODS-5 was playing a big catch up on that one. Now, many of the OS-X features are very impressive, but a lot of them are designed for home users, managing their images, home movies, music etc. However, when you consider that VMS had a desktop that was more powerful than the MACs in the late 1980s, and you compare them now, it makes you realise just how much VMS has NOT moved ahead since then. And why any improvement Guy Peleg brings to DCL are very very appreciated, when you look at te big picture, they are pale in comparison to what Apple is doing to its OS, user interface and applications. Apple is like DEC used to be: it makes hardrware, OS and applications. So when Steve Jobs makes a presentation, he is truly presenting HIS products. Not somebody else products. Carly can only really brag about the colour of the boxes its goods are shipped in. Intel can brag about how many transistors and clock speed for a chip. Microsoft brags about stuff it wants to add in the future. Nobody can brag about a whole solution like Apple can (and like DEC used to be able to do). When you consider the "web event" that HP made a week or two ago, it is really pale in comparison with what Steve Jobs did. That was the perfect opportunity to present leading edge clustering features Alpha VMS had (and which IA64 VMS would have later on), and any new featrures VMS would have in 8.2. carly didn't even mention VMS in her infinite loop. I am sick and tired of hearing attempts to justify moving VMS to IA64. Nobody wants IA64, but if you made VMS look healthy, people might buy it despite it running on IA64. It is VMS features that will compensate for the disadvantage VMS has becuase it is on IA64. That is why it is so important to work on VMS features and applications. If the platform is truly irrelevant, then they should focus on discussing VMS features. And for that, it means that a greater focus should be put on improving VMS in visible ways. (eg: Give Guy Peleg greater freedom to work :-) Why Apple is busy with automatically indexing pictures and movies, VMS is looking for budget to get its proprietary version of Apache the ability to read text files in VMS native format. I think this really puts VMS into perspective. And while one can blame the last 3.5 years of non-VMS advancements on the murder of Alpha and forced porting to that IA64 thing, I think that the slow advancement of VMS started well before that. And with IA64 set to fail soon and a port to yet another platform coming, what are the odds that VMS might still get a much needed injection of "development capital" that would bring truly new features and functionality to VMS ? It is exactly because VMS is proprietary that it does have the ability to take giant leaps ahead. Unix and expecially Linux can only move slowly due to their need to remain "unix compatible". Apple was able to take a HUGE leap between MacOS 9 and OS-X, and OS-9, like VMS was way outdated. The fact that Apple was not only able to come back, but come back with a vengeance and leadership features shows that it is possible to take an old OS and bring it back into leadership. Apple demonstrated many features in OS-X and its hardware which relate to home entertainment centre. The same features that Microsoft brags it wants to be able to do in the future. Apple didn't brag about "home entertainment centre". They just showed what you could do today with their products. You want to edit your movies and show them on TV ? Press that button. Because Apple has both the hardware and software, it is able to really coordinate efforts. Carly can only brag about the colour of her boxes. Intel can only brag about how many transistors and clock speed of its chips, and Microsoft can only talk about future concepts for Longhorn. Apple displays running products on stage with great charisma because it is THEIR CREATION from A to Z. What this comes down to is not about what sort of cluster interconnect you have, it is all about the applications that run on your platform. And that is where the focus for VMS shoudl be. Apple is succesful because it can LEAD. It can introduce support for HD TV years ahead of anyone else as an example. In fact, Apple stole an idea from ALL-IN-1. ALL-In-1 had an interrupt menu (F6 key) available throughout the product which brought you to a menu with quick access to various functions, including acalculator etc, and you would then quickly return to exactly what you were doing before. Well, Apple is introducing he dashboard a GUI equivalent to it. Had Digital spent the money to turn ALL-IN-1 into a X-windows application and integrate WPSPLUS to DECWRITE, the concepts of ALL-In-1 would have made this into a truly world leading office product and Microsoft Word might have stayed in its DOS chartacter cell format because VMS workstatiosn would have been the rage. Remember that in early 1990s, Windows didn't have decent email, didn't have decent networking, and VMS already had clustered workstations, true multitasking, secure etc etc. While the VMS engineers have done great things like extend clustering to greater distances, when you really think about it, were there any significant improvemnts to VMS since they put CDE to Alpha ? ODS-5 brought to VMS what Apple had since 1984. The TCPIP stack is something VMS should have had done properly since the early 1990s and the current product still isn't up to VMS standards and still lags behind other stacks. So while both ODS-5 and TCPIP may have been big steps for VMS, they didn't put VMS in any leadership postion, it only attempted to catch up. In the end, the OS has to provide unique services that give applicatiosn running on that platform a unique edge that will help sell that platform. Intrusion detection is neat. The problem is that you can't do anything with it. One needs to have the secuirty system call one of your own routines whenever intrusion records are added/updated. (send message to beeper, institute greater logging at YCPIP level, consifgure couter to block that IP address due it its constant attempts etc etc). So it isn't enough to spend so much effort to allow greatler flexibility oin system configuration. You need to spend lots of money on services AND on applications that use such services in a way to make them stand out of the crows and make people go "WOW THIS IS GREAT". ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:44:46 GMT From: "robert kas" Subject: Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Message-ID: Ok enough give it up All in One and the VAX aren't coming back . Save up buy a RX2600 and write some applications. Rob "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:1107084897.2644804beeaddbbf43695c2ad881a11f@teranews... > > I just spent 1:55 watching a REAL web event, the Macworld keynote > address. This one worked, wasn't an infinite loop of Carly saying > nothing and was very impressive. > > I still remember an ALL-IN-1 presentation at a DECUS event where the > main engineer presented the new index forms that allowed one to scroll > through list of documents or any other indexed datasets, and the > audience went "wow this is REALLY neat". I still remember when the VMS > new features sessions were overcrowded with people listening from the > corridor because there was no more room inside. > > Endless whining ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:25:35 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Message-ID: robert kas wrote: > Ok enough give it up All in One and the VAX aren't coming back . > Save up buy a RX2600 and write some applications. > Without HP advertising VMS heavily, no sane ISV (commercial enterprise in it for the money), who isn't already a part of the VMS market (and hasn't already decided to exit this market), won't be writing apps for VMS. Where's the growth prospects to justify the investment? Marcello's 10-15% per annum on an installed base (Alpha and Itanic only please) that probably numbers 250-300,000 machines (most of the balance of the mythical 411,000 systems are most likely VAX systems stuck at 5.5-2). How many accounting apps could be sold on VMS? Probably a lot it companies were willing to think that VMS was a viable os for them, but it's got to be more than just the ISV promoting the os, afterall ISV means just that.....independent software vendor, not os vendor. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 2005 08:34:38 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com Subject: Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Message-ID: <1107102878.847286.268780@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> this will only happen if you get VMS out of the hands of a company that doesn't want to be in the OS business ... it will take a dedicated buyer of VMS to bring back apps and destroy the unix/linux/windoze market with a superior os ... the apps gap can be quickly made up buy purchases or mergers ... one nice one would be with Process Software, where TCPware would nicely replace ucx, and where pmdf and precisemail would give vms good mail apps ... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:41:04 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Its the applications dummy !!!! Message-ID: <41FD2A3F.6B78A1A9@comcast.net> robert kas wrote: > > Ok enough give it up All in One and the VAX aren't coming back . > Save up buy a RX2600 and write some applications. Sure! Just point me to the source code for All-in-1, and I'm off! > Endless whining ...is a statement that has gotten very stale. I'd recommend dropping "whine", "whiners" and "whining" from your vocabulary. When you step on people, they will complain until you stop. Get over it. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 2005 08:39:24 -0800 From: bob@instantwhip.com Subject: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Message-ID: <1107103164.380902.289470@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> if all the former DEC employees plus plus users like us would all chip in and then the group could secure an investment from some current big users (cerner) and a few big investors, then vms could be free to destroy the entire windoze/unix/linux market! Everyone could chip in what they could where 1$ would equal 1 share of stock ... I am sure many former employees would even be willing to work for this new company ... is anyone doing this? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:07:13 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Lets all pitch in and buy OpenVMS! Message-ID: bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > if all the former DEC employees plus plus users like us would > all chip in and then the group could secure an investment from some > current big users (cerner) and a few big investors, then vms could be > free to destroy the entire windoze/unix/linux market! Everyone could > chip in what they could where 1$ would equal 1 share of stock ... I am > sure many former employees would even be willing to work for this new > company ... is anyone doing this? Perhaps if everyone in the western world chipped in $1.... We could have the OpenVMS Users Relief Fund....help innocent victims of malignant corporate policy....millions of OpenVMS users terminated over the years...it's a plague right up there with malaria. Click here to donate via Paypal. Get a grip Bob. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jan 2005 01:14:14 -0800 From: mcbill20@yahoo.com Subject: Re: MySQL problem Message-ID: <1107076454.836749.110460@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> You may have to build from source. I just got zlib, ssl, Python, etc. from this same site and I never got it to work until I recompiled everything. You may have seen my recent issues with PHP and Oracle. The whole reason for that started with trying to install the kits from this website and then needing the latest VMS update. Even after the update I still got the mismatch but when I built form source it was fine. Just my .02 Bill issinoho wrote: > Got the latest versions of SSL, ZLIB & MySQL from > http://www.pi-net.dyndns.org/anonymous/kits/ > > When I try to run "MYSQL", I get the following, > > %DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image LIBZ_SHR32 > -CLI-E-IMGNAME, image file > KYLIE$DKA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][LIBZ]LIBZSHR32-1_1_4.EXE > ;1 > -SYSTEM-F-SHRIDMISMAT, ident mismatch with shareable image > > Anyone any ideas? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:56:46 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jean-Fran=E7ois_Pi=E9ronne?= Subject: Re: MySQL problem Message-ID: <41fcaf66$0$19431$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr> > You may have to build from source. I just got zlib, ssl, Python, etc. > from this same site and I never got it to work until I recompiled > everything. You may have seen my recent issues with PHP and Oracle. The > whole reason for that started with trying to install the kits from this > website and then needing the latest VMS update. Even after the update I > still got the mismatch but when I built form source it was fine. > > Just my .02 > > Bill > very strange, These kits have been installed many times without any problem, on VMS 7.3, VMS 7.3-1, VMS 7.3-2. What library had return a mismatch? the Python and MySQL require latest version if ZLIb because a security problem was found in previous version if this library. Jean-François ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:21:21 +0000 From: issinoho Subject: Re: MySQL problem Message-ID: <1107084274.7470.0@iris.uk.clara.net> Jean-François Piéronne wrote: > >> You may have to build from source. I just got zlib, ssl, Python, etc. >> from this same site and I never got it to work until I recompiled >> everything. You may have seen my recent issues with PHP and Oracle. The >> whole reason for that started with trying to install the kits from this >> website and then needing the latest VMS update. Even after the update I >> still got the mismatch but when I built form source it was fine. >> >> Just my .02 >> >> Bill Jean-Francois was correct, heaven knows where I got the older zlib kit from. Everything is OK now. Am trying to get phpmyadmin up and running - has anyone done this? Are there any gotchas form the outset? Looking forward to establishing VAMP (VMS, Apache, MySQL, PHP) as a legitimate hosting solution. Regards. >> > > very strange, > These kits have been installed many times without any problem, on VMS > 7.3, VMS 7.3-1, VMS 7.3-2. > > What library had return a mismatch? > > > the Python and MySQL require latest version if ZLIb because a security > problem was found in previous version if this library. > > > Jean-François ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:49:21 GMT From: Nigel Barker Subject: Re: MySQL problem Message-ID: <1krpv0laacik38ogiiu5549rji82bdn98v@4ax.com> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:21:21 +0000, issinoho wrote: >Am trying to get phpmyadmin up and running - has anyone done this? Are >there any gotchas form the outset? It's been a while but AFAICR it just worked out of the box. It's just pure PHP. -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:40:39 -0500 From: Ken Robinson Subject: Re: MySQL problem Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050130093807.0577eca0@mail.patmedia.net> At 09:49 AM 1/30/2005, Nigel Barker wrote: >On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:21:21 +0000, issinoho wrote: > > >Am trying to get phpmyadmin up and running - has anyone done this? Are > >there any gotchas form the outset? > >It's been a while but AFAICR it just worked out of the box. It's just pure >PHP. There are problems if you don't install it on an ODS-5 disk because some of the filenames have more that one period in them. Ken Robinson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:27:49 +0800 From: prep@prep.synonet.com Subject: Re: PDFs for HP C docs Message-ID: <878y6dr8dm.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Dave Froble writes: > Note that I've never looked for info on either, so I don't know what > "HP C for HP-UX" is formally called. There are at least two HP C compilers for PA riscs. The one shiped with the OS is even more brain-dead than you can imagine. The optional for money one has some quite nice tricks, like putting the parse trees in the object files so you can profile the program, then re-link with optimised calls across modules. Oops, not any more, that was slayed on the altar of industry standard. No more SOM for you. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:58:32 +0800 From: prep@prep.synonet.com Subject: Re: Pls Help with X over TCPIP Message-ID: <87r7k5psdz.fsf@prep.synonet.com> k writes: > Thanks! I'll take it up on another news group. > Can anyone confirm that they are using a linux client with DecWindows > Motif 1.2-6? Linux on x86 with X on Alpha VMS to post this. > As I am unable to find an equivalent to the xauth on VMS I am It is in the session manager, under security. > suspicious that this version of Motif might be too old to > communicate with recent versions of linux. There have been > suggestions to run my linux Xserver without any security, e.g. X -ac > as a workaround. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2005.060 ************************