INFO-VAX Wed, 26 Jan 2005 Volume 2005 : Issue 51 Contents: Re: %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data Re: %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data Re: %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data inconsisten Re: %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data inconsisten Re: %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data inconsisten *IMPORTANT* Message for Google Group, Usenet and AOL users! Re: *IMPORTANT* Message for Google Group, Usenet and AOL users! Re: ANAL/MEDIA/EXER on a modern disk? Re: ANAL/MEDIA/EXER on a modern disk? Re: anybody know the details on the COMAIR debacle? compaq ds20 & ds10 for sale, east USA. Re: Comparison of operating systems on wikipedia Re: Comparison of operating systems on wikipedia Re: Comparison of operating systems on wikipedia Re: DEC Keyboard Question Re: DEC Keyboard Question Re: DEC Keyboard Question Re: DEC Keyboard Question Re: DEC Keyboard Question Re: DEC Keyboard Question Re: DEC Keyboard Question Re: DEC Keyboard Question Re: DEC Keyboard Question Re: disk drive spin direction Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA Re: Fault-tolerant VMS Re: Fault-tolerant VMS HAVE YOU HEARD THE GOOD NEWS! LAT application port notification of events Need Raid License for HSZ20 Raid Array 310 Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Re: OpenVMS 8.2 Docs on web page? Re: PDFs for HP C docs Re: PDFs for HP C docs Re: Pls Help with X over TCPIP Re: Pls Help with X over TCPIP Re: Pls Help with X over TCPIP Promoting Open Source on VMS (Was: Why growing the VMS installed base is importa Re: RFA string format Re: RFA string format Re: RFA string format Re: RFA string format Re: RFA string format ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Jan 2005 12:58:31 -0600 From: kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) Subject: Re: %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data Message-ID: In article <5-Cdnfchyb9RemjcRVn-vg@inreach.com>, John Hixson writes: > Hello VMS users, > I am getting this error when attempting to install alot of software. > I get this error on OpenVMS 7.3 on a alpha pws 600au: > > %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data > inconsistency > > This error shows up when I attempt to install oracle, fortran, and > compaq's C compiler (cc065) using @sys$update:vmsinstal . Is there a way > I can fix this? Can I modify a script? This is starting to really > irritate me =). If you are trying install more than one product at a time, then my first suggestion would be to install only one at a time. This way you can see if the problem is related to one products installation procedure, or if it is a problem elsewhere. You can turn verify on for vmsinstal by putting ",D," in as P4 on the command line, like so... $ @sys$update:vmsinstal CC065 DISK:[KIT] "" ",D," The commas have to be on either side of the uppercase D. This will spit out a lot of hard to read DCL, but it will also show where the error is happening. A SET HOST 0/LOG of the install (without the verify, initially) would help narrow down where this error is occuring. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:42:18 +0000 (UTC) From: klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis) Subject: Re: %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data Message-ID: John Hixson writes in article <5-Cdnfchyb9RemjcRVn-vg@inreach.com> dated Mon, 24 Jan 2005 22:31:39 -0800: >%DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data >inconsistency > >This error shows up when I attempt to install oracle, fortran, and >compaq's C compiler (cc065) using @sys$update:vmsinstal . Is there a way >I can fix this? Can I modify a script? This is starting to really >irritate me =). It's possible you have stepped on a command with a symbol. Do a "show sym/glo/all" and see if the output contains any values which start with "IF", "THE", "EL", or "ENDI". If so, locate the offending assignment in your login.com or sylogin.com and remove it. --Keith Lewis klewis {at} mitre.org The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 2005 20:42:51 -0800 From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data inconsisten Message-ID: <1106714571.000776.42460@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> John, Did you get your product savesets VIA FTP or off a CD? If it was FTP then you probably have some corrupted savesets causing the RMS-W-RTB errors. First of all make sure you FTP'd the files in BINARY mode. If you're not sure, then re-do the transfers. Then cut and paste the following DCL script to your machine (maybe to "sys$manager:RESET_BACKUP_SAVESET_ATTRIBUTES.COM") and run it on each saveset file (i.e. @sys$manager:RESET_BACKUP_SAVESET_ATTRIBUTES dka0:[john.cc065.kit]cc065.a; ). This should fix any problems with the file's RMS attributes which may have gotten lost in the FTP. You can find out more information about the script below from this link: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/freeware/backup.html HTH, John H. Reinhardt $! RESET_BACKUP_SAVESET_ATTRIBUTES.COM $! $! P1 is the specification of the BACKUP saveset $! $! This procedure resets the record format and record $! length attributes of a BACKUP saveset -- savesets $! can get "broken" during certain sorts of file $! transfers -- such as FTP. This procedure reads the $! (undocumented) saveset record attributes directly $! out of the target file. $! $! First render the saveset readable, and implicitly $! check that the file exists. $! $ Set File - /Attributes=(RFM:FIX,MRS:512,LRL=512,ORG=SEQ,RAT=NONE) - 'p1' $ $ Open/Error=whoops/Read BckSaveset 'p1' $ Read/Error=whoops/End=whoops BckSaveset Record $ Close/Nolog BckSaveset $ $! Find the blocksize from within the record... $ $ BlockSize = 0 $ BBH_L_BLOCKSIZE = %x28*8 $ BlockSize = F$CVUI(BBH_L_BLOCKSIZE, 32, Record) $ If BlockSize .lt. 2048 .or. BlockSize .gt. 65535 $ Then $ Write sys$output "Unexpected block size" $ Goto whoops $ Else $ Set File /Attributes=(RFM:FIX,LRL='BlockSize', - MRS='BlockSize',RAT=none) - 'p1' $ endif $ exit $WHOOPS: $ Write sys$output "Error" $ exit ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 15:30:45 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data inconsisten Message-ID: <41F6AC75.10577053@teksavvy.com> Charlie Hammond wrote: > An additional question -- have you by chance re-defined IF, THEN, ELSE or > ENDIF? One of the first things VMSINSTAL does is to DELETE/SYMBOL/GLOBAL * So no matter how the user has messed up symbols, VMSINSTAL is supposed to work. What is the logical/symbol that needs to be defined to enable the SET VERIFY ? in a VMSINSTAL ? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:16:38 -0800 From: John Hixson Subject: Re: %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data inconsisten Message-ID: OK Guys, Here goes: I modified LOGIN.COM with the following: $ VI*M :== VIM:VIM.EXE $ VI :== VIM:VIM.EXE $ DEFINE PERL_ROOT WEED$DKA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.PERL5_006_01] $ DEFINE PERLSHR WEED$DKA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.PERL5_006_01]PERLSHR.EXE $ PERL :== PERL_ROOT:PERL.EXE $ PERLDOC :== PERL_ROOT:PERL.EXE PERL_ROOT:[LIB.POD]PERLDOC.COM -t Here are the errors I get when I try to install the Compaq C Compiler (cc065): %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data inconsistency %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data inconsistency %VMSINSTAL-E-INSFAIL, The installation of CC V6.5 has failed. I try installing using the following command: @sys$update:vmsinstal cc065 dka0:[john.cc065.kit] options n Under dka0:[john.cc065.kit] are the files cc065.a;1 and cc065.b;1 Here are the errors I get when I try and install Oracle RDB: %VMSINSTAL-I-RELMOVED, Product's release notes have been moved to SYS$HELP. %RMS-W-RTB, 257 byte record too large for user's buffer %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data inconsistency %RMS-W-RTB, 28271 byte record too large for user's buffer %DCL-W-USGOTO, target of GOTO not found - check spelling and presence of label \ABORT_ERROR\ %VMSINSTAL-E-INSFAIL, The installation of RDBV71400AM V7.1 has failed. @sys$update:vmsinstal rdbv71400am071 dka0:[john] options n Under dka0:[john] are the files rdbv71400am071.a-e I am using Compaq OpenVMS 7.3 on an Alpha PWS 600au. I hope this helps more. I also get very similar errors when trying to install fortran, PL/I, and even the older version cc057 C Compiler. Thanks, John Hixson John Hixson wrote: > Hello VMS users, > I am getting this error when attempting to install alot of software. I > get this error on OpenVMS 7.3 on a alpha pws 600au: > > %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data > inconsistency > > This error shows up when I attempt to install oracle, fortran, and > compaq's C compiler (cc065) using @sys$update:vmsinstal . Is there a way > I can fix this? Can I modify a script? This is starting to really > irritate me =). > > Thanks, > John Hixson ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 2005 14:32:39 -0800 From: google_groups_net@yahoo.com Subject: *IMPORTANT* Message for Google Group, Usenet and AOL users! Message-ID: <1106692358.988295.108230@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Good News! Do you know how simple it is to go to Heaven after this life has ended? Some people believe that belonging to a local church, temple, mosque or synagogue will get them to Heaven. Others believe that water baptism, obeying the ten commandments or just being a good person will get them to Heaven. There are many other beliefs as well, but the good news about God's way to Heaven is found in the Holy Bible. The good news is that God came from Heaven to earth in the person of Jesus Christ over 2000 years ago and died for our sins(misdeeds). He was born in the land of Israel supernaturally to a virgin Jewish woman named Mary. He lived a sinless life for thirty-three years and then sacrificed His sinless blood and died on a cross to pay the death penalty for our sins. After Jesus was placed in a tomb He rose from the dead three days later as He said He would. The Holy Bible also tells us that Jesus Christ ascended into Heaven and that all who accept Him as their Lord and Saviour will live forever with Him in Heaven where there is no more death, sorrow, sickness and pain. The Bible says, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23) This verse in the Bible says, "For ALL HAVE SINNED, and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) This verse says, "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) In this passage the Bible clearly explains how simple it is to be saved and on your way to Heaven, "For if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you WILL BE SAVED." (Romans 10:9) You can be saved right now and on your way to Heaven if you will open your heart to Jesus and pray the following prayer: Dear Jesus Christ, I want to be saved so that I can have a home in Heaven when I die. I agree with You that I am a sinner. I believe You love me and want to save me. I believe that You bled and died on the cross to pay the penalty for my sins. I believe that You rose from the dead. Please forgive my sins and come into my heart and be my Lord and Saviour. Thank You Lord Jesus Christ for forgiving me and saving me through Your merciful grace. Amen. You are now a Christian if you said the prayer and allowed God to save you. Welcome to the family of God. Salvation is not a reward but a gift. The Bible says it this way, "For it is by GRACE you have been SAVED, through FAITH and this not from yourselves, it is the GIFT of God." (Ephesians 2:8) Nothing in the world is more important than your eternal destiny. The Bible says, "In Him(Jesus) we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins..." (Ephesians 1:7) If you have not yet made a decision to be saved, please do so now before it is too late. The reason why it is so important to be saved now is because you do not know exactly when you will die. You may die prematurely in a traffic accident, terrorist attack or some other way before you get another chance to be saved. The Bible tells us that we will spend eternity in Heaven or a place of eternal torment called Hell. It would be terrible to die and go to Hell when all you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour. Some people that have already made Jesus Christ their Lord and Saviour worry about losing their salvation. The Bible teaches Christians that we can never lose our salvation no matter what happens. The Bible says it this way, "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense Jesus Christ, the Righteous One." Yes my friend, Jesus Christ is able to save you and keep you saved. Please tell your family and friends, thanks! Have a great day! Internet Evangelist R.L. Grossi 1. http://www.biblegateway.com << Free Online Bible 2. http://www.free-hoster.com/goodnews << Passion of the Christ 3. http://www.carm.org/cults/cultlist.htm << Beware Of Cults 4. http://www.equip.org/free/DH198.htm << About Hell 5. http://www.powertochange.com/questions/qna2.html << Is Jesus God? ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 2005 23:23:47 GMT From: "Doc." Subject: Re: *IMPORTANT* Message for Google Group, Usenet and AOL users! Message-ID: %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, wrote in news:1106692358.988295.108230 @z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com > Good News! > > > Do you know how simple it is to go to Heaven after this life has ended? You need to have landed on the Community Chest square and got the "Get out of Hell free card"? Doc. -- OpenVMS: Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems. http://www.openvms-rocks.com Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 2005 11:11:51 -0800 From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: ANAL/MEDIA/EXER on a modern disk? Message-ID: <1106678393.244971.177460@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Under VMS, BACKUP/VERIFY between two full volumes with a mix of smallish and largish does plenty of seeks and long read/writes. RSX also had IOX, remember, which was a really good end-to-end test. Tim. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 15:51:25 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: ANAL/MEDIA/EXER on a modern disk? Message-ID: <41F6B14C.73906335@teksavvy.com> Bob Kaplow wrote: > We used to be able to test and exercise new disks (or destroy sensitive data > from old disks) with the ANALYZE/MEDIA/EXERCISE command, or way back in > time, the BAD utility under RSX. Alas with modern "smart" devices, these no > longer function. Why is ana/media not working anymore ? Also,aren't there hooks into this (or is it DELETE or INIT) where you can have your own user-written system service provide random patterns used to write over all data while erasing the disk ? (although this would be at the formatted disk level, not the disk block level, right ?) ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 2005 13:17:10 -0800 From: soverby@cxo.com Subject: Re: anybody know the details on the COMAIR debacle? Message-ID: <1106687830.304942.94300@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Looking for information from IT employees/former IT employees at Comair. Please contact me at: soverby@cxo.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 15:22:21 -0500 From: Tomato Paste Subject: compaq ds20 & ds10 for sale, east USA. Message-ID: <8Jidne1F5--_NmvcRVn-tQ@comcast.com> I'll try here before I send these to Ebay - DS10 & DS20 for sale, location is near DC/Baltimore USA. I might deliver within a few hundred miles. Price is "going rate", whatever that is lately, or best offer within the next few weeks. Summary : 1 ds10, single 466 cpu, 1 gig ram, 9 gig HD, boots Suse linux, model is 3X-PB01A-AA. 1 ds20, dual 500 cpus, 4 gig ram, 9 gig HD to boot Suse, 8 smaller drives, model is DA-55NJA-DA. Part numbers, more info & many good pics by email if you want 'em. -P ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:37:51 -0700 From: "Michael D. Ober" Subject: Re: Comparison of operating systems on wikipedia Message-ID: They listed OS/2, but not Windows 2003. So much for only listing "live" OSs. I suspect it's more a case of what people have contributed. Mike. "John Smith" wrote in message news:Do-dnQQGnp3-FGvcRVn-qw@igs.net... > Peter Sjoberg wrote: > > I'm missing one great OS on > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_operating_systems > > They don't list 'dead' operating systems .... GCOS, Multics, OS390, MVS, > VMS, Tru64, HP-UX > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 02:06:59 +0100 From: Keith Cayemberg Subject: Re: Comparison of operating systems on wikipedia Message-ID: <41f6ed35$0$17617$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> Peter Sjoberg wrote: > I'm missing one great OS on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_operating_systems > is it anyone who like to add it? > > > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups > ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Regardless of who makes the update to Wiki, I would suggest we discuss in COV what the correct entries to the Tables should be. To get us started, I've taken a first crack at filling out the tables... (please first examine the current Wiki page to better understand the tables; Hyperlinks to other existing Wiki entries are underlined) *OS Name* _OpenVMS_ *General* Creator _Digital Equipment Corporation_ First public release date _February_ _1978_ Predecessor _RSX-11M_ Stable version 8.2 (current release) Cost (US Dollars) Free for noncommercial use Preferred License _Hobbyist_, _Proprietary_ Target Audience Server,Enthusiast,Secure Domain, _WS_,_TS_,_RT_,_PC_,_DCS_,MC,DT,_TP_ _Batch_,Fully-Shared _Clustering_ *Technical* Kernel type privilege-Ring** modular-subsystem _RT_ Kernel Default file system _Files-11_ Other major _ISO 9660_ file systems supported Arch. support(first, _VAX_,_Alpha_,_IA64_, primary platform) CHARON-VAX Emulator Default online http://www1.sqp.com OS update tool Default package mgmnt./ PCSI, VMSINSTAL SW install. tool Main API and lang. _CLE_, language neutral for GUI applications Main API and lang. _VT_,SMG,_DCL_,_CLE_, for text/CLI apps language neutral *Features* Graphics software and Executive, Supervisor, or User- capabilites mode program:_X Window System_ Default Filesystem Browser _CDE_ file manager Default desktop environment _CDE_ Default window manager DECW$MWM _Motif_ Default GUI styling _CDE_ ** See "Operating Systems: Design and Implementation" by Andrew S. Tanenbaum, Section 1.5.2, Page 39. http://cwx.prenhall.com/bookbind/pubbooks/tanenbaum/chapter0/deluxe.html *Hyperlinks and abbreviations used in Tables above* OpenVMS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenVMS Digital Equipment Corporation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Equipment_Corporation February http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February 1978 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978 RSX-11M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSX-11 Hobbyist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vms#OpenVMS_Hobbyist Proprietary http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprietary_software WS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workstation TS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-sharing RT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realtime PC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_control DCS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_Control_System MC = Mission-Critical DT = Disaster Tolerant Files-11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Files-11 TP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transaction_processing Batch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batch_processing Clustering http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vms#Clustering ISO 9660 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9660 VAX http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAX Alpha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_Alpha IA64 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IA64 CLE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vms#Common_Language_Environment VT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT100 SMG$ = Screen Management RTL DCL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIGITAL_Command_Language X Window System http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System Motif http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motif_%28widget_toolkit%29 CDE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDE Cheers! Keith Cayemberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:19:18 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Comparison of operating systems on wikipedia Message-ID: <41F71A2C.17C3202B@teksavvy.com> Keith Cayemberg wrote: > *OS Name* _OpenVMS_ I woudl put in "VMS" since this is what it was created as. > Arch. support(first, _VAX_,_Alpha_,_IA64_, > primary platform) CHARON-VAX Emulator Since VMS does not run on an 8086, is the CHARON product (and you might also include SIMH) really supposed to be there ? It emulated a VAX and VMS thinks it is running on a VAX. Does the Windows entry include all the chips for which there are 8086 emulators ? (including VAX which had the insignia solutions emulator). > Graphics software and Executive, Supervisor, or User- > capabilites mode program:_X Window System_ Shouldn't motif 1.2 be added to this ? > Default desktop environment _CDE_ Can you add "or Decwindows Seesion manager" ? > Default window manager DECW$MWM _Motif_ Motif isn't a window manager. MWM is a window manager that happens to come with Motif. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:04:16 -0800 From: Ken Fairfield Subject: Re: DEC Keyboard Question Message-ID: John E. Malmberg wrote: > Ken Fairfield wrote: > >> >> I don't know specifically about the Outlook ES, but when I queried >> Avocent's technical support that Fall, the answer I got back was, >> >> "While our switches do support mode 3 keyboard, it is >> currently only in the 101/102 keyboard layout. The >> additional keys would not pass through." >> >> I got similar negative responses from Adder, Linksys and Belkin. >> I didn't expect anything different from Belkin, but Adder had a >> nice little switch I would've liked to buy...too bad... > > > A google search shows that there are several mode 3 keyboards available > for x86 PC devices from several vendors. Due respect, John, you're missing the point. The problem is not mode 3, and it is not x86 PCs. It is KVM switches. It is true that Windows of various generations works fine with LK4xx keyboards, and I, too, use one for my daily work connected to an IBM T41 Laptop running Windows XP Professional (not proud of it, just the facts m'am :-). The problem is the KVM switch does not pass the key codes corresponding to the "extra" keys on the LK4xx. It passes all the keys codes found on a "standard" 101/102 key keyboard. It doesn't pass F17-F20, for example, or KP-comma, or the DO key, etc. And I'm not even talking about the mapping of the 102 keys they do pass. >> The other piece of information I've gleaned from my research is >> that essentially all of the switches put the physical keyboard >> into mode 2, then translate to/from mode 3 for the VMS connection. > > > A google search which I do not have handy indicates that x86 PCs not > only regularly use mode 3 for keyboards, support for the LK series > appears to be present in many versions of Microsoft Windows. The only > version known not to support the LK4xx keyboards is the first retail > version of Microsoft NT 4.0. The betas had support. > > Unfortunately I could not find a list of what versions of Microsoft > Windows will support a NT 4.0 keyboard. > > It also appears from google that Linux will support an LKxxx keyboard. Ditto: problem not with x86PC nor Windows, but with KVM switch. >> Apparently Raritan does the translation with a per-system-connection >> adapter (Alan, correct me if I'm wrong; I don't have any personal >> experience with Raritan). > > > Google is indicating that such translation is not needed as the x86 PCs > operating systems already know about and use mode 3, but that conflicts > with what others who have studied this more than I did. Ditto: problem not with x86 PC but with KVM switch. [BIG SNIP] > So far in my limited tests, Windows 98/2000 are quite happy with an LK > keyboard connected through the cheap Belkin KVM. Ditto: problem not with x86 PC nor Windows. If you use an LK4xx through the Belkin to Windows, you won't see a problem. Indeed, you may not see the problem through the Belkin to VMS if your access to VMS is through the PC (mode 2). I don't know that this is true, I'm only allowing that I haven't tried it... YOU WILL SEE THE PROBLEM if you connect the LK4xx to the KVM switch, then the KVM switch to a "real Alpha". Trust me. You will. No Reflections. No KEAterm. No eXceed. Native (semi-)direct VMS. Won't work. [MORE SNIPPAGE] -Ken -- I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me... Ken Fairfield D1C Automation VMS System Support who: kenneth dot h dot fairfield where: intel dot com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:47:13 GMT From: "FredK" Subject: Re: DEC Keyboard Question Message-ID: <5nxJd.6532$mv4.3353@news.cpqcorp.net> There are two types of KVM switches - dumb pass-thru and "smart" switches. The dumb ones simply pass the data through with little intellegence. The only thing that they need to do at least for VMS is to cause a power up sequence to be generated when the KB is connected. This way we will reprogram the KB automatically. The smart ones actually have a uProc that handles the KB and then emulates a KB on the other side. These keyboards need to either know about the extended codes - or at least be smart enough to pass them through. In the worst case, these KVMs handle USB as well, and then they need to know how to turn the extendd PS2 codes into the right USB codes. "Ken Fairfield" wrote in message news:ct657g$9jf$1@news01.intel.com... > John E. Malmberg wrote: > > Ken Fairfield wrote: > > > >> > >> I don't know specifically about the Outlook ES, but when I queried > >> Avocent's technical support that Fall, the answer I got back was, > >> > >> "While our switches do support mode 3 keyboard, it is > >> currently only in the 101/102 keyboard layout. The > >> additional keys would not pass through." > >> > >> I got similar negative responses from Adder, Linksys and Belkin. > >> I didn't expect anything different from Belkin, but Adder had a > >> nice little switch I would've liked to buy...too bad... > > > > > > A google search shows that there are several mode 3 keyboards available > > for x86 PC devices from several vendors. > > Due respect, John, you're missing the point. The problem is > not mode 3, and it is not x86 PCs. It is KVM switches. > > It is true that Windows of various generations works fine with > LK4xx keyboards, and I, too, use one for my daily work connected > to an IBM T41 Laptop running Windows XP Professional (not proud of > it, just the facts m'am :-). > > The problem is the KVM switch does not pass the key codes > corresponding to the "extra" keys on the LK4xx. It passes all the > keys codes found on a "standard" 101/102 key keyboard. It doesn't > pass F17-F20, for example, or KP-comma, or the DO key, etc. And I'm > not even talking about the mapping of the 102 keys they do pass. > > >> The other piece of information I've gleaned from my research is > >> that essentially all of the switches put the physical keyboard > >> into mode 2, then translate to/from mode 3 for the VMS connection. > > > > > > A google search which I do not have handy indicates that x86 PCs not > > only regularly use mode 3 for keyboards, support for the LK series > > appears to be present in many versions of Microsoft Windows. The only > > version known not to support the LK4xx keyboards is the first retail > > version of Microsoft NT 4.0. The betas had support. > > > > Unfortunately I could not find a list of what versions of Microsoft > > Windows will support a NT 4.0 keyboard. > > > > It also appears from google that Linux will support an LKxxx keyboard. > > Ditto: problem not with x86PC nor Windows, but with KVM switch. > > >> Apparently Raritan does the translation with a per-system-connection > >> adapter (Alan, correct me if I'm wrong; I don't have any personal > >> experience with Raritan). > > > > > > Google is indicating that such translation is not needed as the x86 PCs > > operating systems already know about and use mode 3, but that conflicts > > with what others who have studied this more than I did. > > Ditto: problem not with x86 PC but with KVM switch. > > [BIG SNIP] > > > So far in my limited tests, Windows 98/2000 are quite happy with an LK > > keyboard connected through the cheap Belkin KVM. > > Ditto: problem not with x86 PC nor Windows. If you use an LK4xx > through the Belkin to Windows, you won't see a problem. Indeed, > you may not see the problem through the Belkin to VMS if your > access to VMS is through the PC (mode 2). I don't know that this > is true, I'm only allowing that I haven't tried it... > > YOU WILL SEE THE PROBLEM if you connect the LK4xx to the KVM switch, > then the KVM switch to a "real Alpha". Trust me. You will. > No Reflections. No KEAterm. No eXceed. Native (semi-)direct VMS. > Won't work. > > [MORE SNIPPAGE] > > -Ken > > -- > I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me... > > Ken Fairfield > D1C Automation VMS System Support > who: kenneth dot h dot fairfield > where: intel dot com > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:47:51 -0800 From: Ken Fairfield Subject: Re: DEC Keyboard Question Message-ID: FredK wrote: > There are two types of KVM switches - dumb pass-thru and "smart" switches. > The dumb ones simply pass the data through with little intellegence. The > only thing that they need to do at least for VMS is to cause a power up > sequence to be generated when the KB is connected. This way we will > reprogram the KB automatically. The smart ones actually have a uProc that > handles the KB and then emulates a KB on the other side. These keyboards > need to either know about the extended codes - or at least be smart enough > to pass them through. In the worst case, these KVMs handle USB as well, and > then they need to know how to turn the extendd PS2 codes into the right USB > codes. Thanks, Fred. There's the theory lesson for you. Now to the lab. Problem is, given the range of KVM switches in the field, only the "smart" ones have been shown to work (reasonably) connected to both a PC and a VMS system. If you know differently, PLEASE SHARE! By the way, as near as my co-worker and I have been able to figure out, the LK463 connected directly to the USB port of a laptop running Windows XP does NOT recognize the "extra" keys. Same keyboard connected to the same laptop, but using the USB-to-PS/2 adapter and plugged into the PS/2 port on a port-replicator (no PS/2 connector on the nwere laptops) works fine, all 108 keys. Apparently, the needed enhancements to the USB keyboard driver are not included in Windows XP (would be nice if HP supplied such a driver)... -Ken -- I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me... Ken Fairfield D1C Automation VMS System Support who: kenneth dot h dot fairfield where: intel dot com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:44:59 GMT From: "FredK" Subject: Re: DEC Keyboard Question Message-ID: "Ken Fairfield" wrote in message news:ct67p7$anj$1@news01.intel.com... > FredK wrote: > > > There are two types of KVM switches - dumb pass-thru and "smart" switches. > > The dumb ones simply pass the data through with little intellegence. The > > only thing that they need to do at least for VMS is to cause a power up > > sequence to be generated when the KB is connected. This way we will > > reprogram the KB automatically. The smart ones actually have a uProc that > > handles the KB and then emulates a KB on the other side. These keyboards > > need to either know about the extended codes - or at least be smart enough > > to pass them through. In the worst case, these KVMs handle USB as well, and > > then they need to know how to turn the extendd PS2 codes into the right USB > > codes. > > Thanks, Fred. There's the theory lesson for you. Now to the lab. > > Problem is, given the range of KVM switches in the field, only the > "smart" ones have been shown to work (reasonably) connected to both > a PC and a VMS system. If you know differently, PLEASE SHARE! > > By the way, as near as my co-worker and I have been able to figure > out, the LK463 connected directly to the USB port of a laptop > running Windows XP does NOT recognize the "extra" keys. > > Same keyboard connected to the same laptop, but using the > USB-to-PS/2 adapter and plugged into the PS/2 port on a > port-replicator (no PS/2 connector on the nwere laptops) works > fine, all 108 keys. > > Apparently, the needed enhancements to the USB keyboard driver > are not included in Windows XP (would be nice if HP supplied > such a driver)... > Yes/No. USB is fairly well defined (as opposed to PS2). There is a huge table of key codes - but when adding extra keys to a non-Windows keyboard you just try to come as close as you can to how you think they *should* map. You would imagine that the Windows drivers would just pass the USB key through - and I *think* they do, but don't know for certain - but for instance using PowerTerm I see something - unknown keys when using the LK463 directly. In any case, PowerTerm knows about the LK411 keyboard, and when you plug in a LK463 *using* a PS2 dongle - that is what it looks like. When you plug it in directly, the keys don't map correctly in a way that the application (for instance PowerTerm) expects. I have shared the USB keymapping with Ericom in case they want to incorporate support. So if you are using one of their commercial versions (HP no longer is updating the old version that was in Pathworks) feel free to ask them to support it as well. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:37:52 -0800 From: Ken Fairfield Subject: Re: DEC Keyboard Question Message-ID: FredK wrote: [...] > Yes/No. USB is fairly well defined (as opposed to PS2). There is a huge > table of key codes - but when adding extra keys to a non-Windows keyboard > you just try to come as close as you can to how you think they *should* map. > You would imagine that the Windows drivers would just pass the USB key > through - and I *think* they do, but don't know for certain - but for > instance using PowerTerm I see something - unknown keys when using the LK463 > directly. [...] OK, good to know. I'll have to do some more experiments. With both KEAterm and eXceed, and using the PS/2 connection, I'm able to map the otherwise "unrecognized" keys to their "proper" LK4xx key or keysym. I was looking over my co-worker's shoulder when he tried, and failed, with the USB connection directly into his laptop. I'll try again on my own and report what I find. -Ken -- I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me... Ken Fairfield D1C Automation VMS System Support who: kenneth dot h dot fairfield where: intel dot com ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 2005 15:35:46 -0600 From: wb8tyw@qsl.network (John E. Malmberg) Subject: Re: DEC Keyboard Question Message-ID: In article , Ken Fairfield writes: > John E. Malmberg wrote: >> Ken Fairfield wrote: >> > The problem is the KVM switch does not pass the key codes > corresponding to the "extra" keys on the LK4xx. It passes all the > keys codes found on a "standard" 101/102 key keyboard. It doesn't > pass F17-F20, for example, or KP-comma, or the DO key, etc. And I'm > not even talking about the mapping of the 102 keys they do pass. F12, F13, F17, HELP, DO, AND KP MINUS, do not exist on a standard x86 keyboard. The BELKIN KVM switch that I have does not seem to have any problem with sending them to the my DS10 after I switch to it. I have not tried convincing Reflections 4 to attemp to use them. These keys do work: KP-COMMA is the same scan code as the PLUS key. F18 is the same scan code as the PrtSc/SysRq key. F19 is the same scan code as the Scroll Lock key. F20 is the same scan code as the Pause/Break key. >>> The other piece of information I've gleaned from my research is >>> that essentially all of the switches put the physical keyboard >>> into mode 2, then translate to/from mode 3 for the VMS connection. I have not put any keyboard analyzers or test programs on either system so I really do not know what is actually being sent. >> So far in my limited tests, Windows 98/2000 are quite happy with an LK >> keyboard connected through the cheap Belkin KVM. > > Ditto: problem not with x86 PC nor Windows. If you use an LK4xx > through the Belkin to Windows, you won't see a problem. Indeed, > you may not see the problem through the Belkin to VMS if your > access to VMS is through the PC (mode 2). I don't know that this > is true, I'm only allowing that I haven't tried it... Apparently you did not follow the Encompasserve links :-) > YOU WILL SEE THE PROBLEM if you connect the LK4xx to the KVM switch, > then the KVM switch to a "real Alpha". Trust me. You will. > No Reflections. No KEAterm. No eXceed. Native (semi-)direct VMS. > Won't work. I have the KVM switch connected to a x86 machine, and an Alpha and have been using it for a month now. My first reply today on this thread was composed by typing on a keyboard connected to that Belkin KVM which also switches the speakers and microphone at the same time, and I also logged into the system through Reflections 4, which worked the same as it always did. It did not see the extra keys. I do not yet have Pathworks 32 installed on that machine. So far, every thing that I have tried has worked as expected. The only thing that took me by surprise is that the ALT-F19 or Alt-F19 toggles some DecWindows Motif mouse handling mode. And you have to use the same ALT key (right or left) to unset the mode as was used to set it. The only reason that I got the KVM was that it was on about 50% rebate last month, making it very cheap, as it was already about the cheapest KVM in the store and it handled the audio. I figured if it did not work, I was not out much. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 2005 16:44:17 -0600 From: wb8tyw@qsl.network (John E. Malmberg) Subject: Re: DEC Keyboard Question Message-ID: In article <5nxJd.6532$mv4.3353@news.cpqcorp.net>, "FredK" writes: > > There are two types of KVM switches - dumb pass-thru and "smart" switches. > The dumb ones simply pass the data through with little intellegence. The > only thing that they need to do at least for VMS is to cause a power up > sequence to be generated when the KB is connected. This way we will > reprogram the KB automatically. The smart ones actually have a uProc that > handles the KB and then emulates a KB on the other side. These keyboards > need to either know about the extended codes - or at least be smart enough > to pass them through. In the worst case, these KVMs handle USB as well, and > then they need to know how to turn the extendd PS2 codes into the right USB > codes. With out an analyzer, there is probably no way to determine which type that the BELKIN F1DL102P KVM is. It obviously has to have some smarts because the only way to switch sessions is by using the keyboard. http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=164050 It claims to do keyboard emulation. As I remember, the retail price at the local store is a bit lower than what is shown, and after the rebates, I think I ended up only spending less than 1/2 of even that. There is not much documentation for it other than it is has support for multiple operating systems. I just put it in because it was cheap and allowed me to switch the audio also, which would simplify things. I figured if it did not work, I would not be out much. I do not know if there are problems that I have not discovered, after all it has only been a month on a home hobby machine. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:37:42 -0800 From: Ken Fairfield Subject: Re: DEC Keyboard Question Message-ID: My apologies...I think John and I have been talking past each other... My problem has been to get all the keys on an LK461 passed through the KVM to the Alpha. John seems to have been concentrating on what those keys do on the Windows side... John E. Malmberg wrote: [...] > F12, F13, F17, HELP, DO, AND KP MINUS, do not exist on a standard x86 > keyboard. The BELKIN KVM switch that I have does not seem to have any > problem with sending them to the my DS10 after I switch to it. > > I have not tried convincing Reflections 4 to attemp to use them. > > These keys do work: > > KP-COMMA is the same scan code as the PLUS key. > F18 is the same scan code as the PrtSc/SysRq key. > F19 is the same scan code as the Scroll Lock key. > F20 is the same scan code as the Pause/Break key. OK, right, in a Windows environment, that's the (default) mapping I see. Although I mis-remembered that KP-minus was missing with KP-comma mapped to KP-plus; I had thought KP-comma was missing and KP-minus mapped to KP-plus. But I never considered this the root problem. I was pleasantly surprized that, under Windows 2000 and XP, both KEA and eXceed could "see" my key presses for the "extra" keys, and allow me to map them within the application to the correct LK4xx key code or keysym. That made me a happy camper since I could edit "naturally" on VMS while sitting at my laptop. :-) [...] > Apparently you did not follow the Encompasserve links :-) I have now. :-) This is actually very good news. My info is clearly out of date, bit over a year old. Or perhaps I asked Belkin the wrong question. [...] > I have the KVM switch connected to a x86 machine, and an Alpha and have > been using it for a month now. > > My first reply today on this thread was composed by typing on a keyboard > connected to that Belkin KVM which also switches the speakers and > microphone at the same time, and I also logged into the system through > Reflections 4, which worked the same as it always did. It did not see > the extra keys. So this is interesting. It would "appear", without the aid of some signal tracing, that the KVM keeps the Alpha connection in mode 3 and passes all codes, while the PC connection is in mode 2 and passes only the 104 or so key codes it "knows". Or is it that Reflection doesn't know how to handle the LK461? What happens if you bypass the KVM and plug the LK461 directly into the PC? Does Reflection see all the keys then? If not, the problem is in Reflection, not the KVM (at least, not necessarily). [...] > The only thing that took me by surprise is that the ALT-F19 or > Alt-F19 toggles some DecWindows Motif mouse handling mode. And you have > to use the same ALT key (right or left) to unset the mode as was used > to set it. I'll have to keep a lookout for that... > The only reason that I got the KVM was that it was on about 50% rebate > last month, making it very cheap, as it was already about the cheapest > KVM in the store and it handled the audio. I figured if it did not > work, I was not out much. Sounds good! And for those not familiar with this device, the Belkin F1DL102P is a 2-port KVM embedded in the cables. It sort of looks like a wishbone. You don't need to buy separate cables, which for Raritan and Rose switches can be _very_ expensive! John, how long are the cables? It's not clear from the description. I'm using 5ft cables from my current switch to the two systems I have and I don't think I could go any shorter. -Ken -- I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me... Ken Fairfield D1C Automation VMS System Support who: kenneth dot h dot fairfield where: intel dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:02:03 -0500 From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: DEC Keyboard Question Message-ID: Ken Fairfield wrote: > So this is interesting. It would "appear", without the aid of some > signal tracing, that the KVM keeps the Alpha connection in mode 3 > and passes all codes, while the PC connection is in mode 2 and passes > only the 104 or so key codes it "knows". Or is it that Reflection > doesn't know how to handle the LK461? What happens if you bypass the > KVM and plug the LK461 directly into the PC? Does Reflection see all > the keys then? If not, the problem is in Reflection, not the KVM > (at least, not necessarily). My Reflections 4/X version is old, and it only knows about Windows NT 4.0 and earlier. Reflections 4 says that I have to install a special DLL for it to use the LK450 layout, but that also appears to have side effects for the Microsoft side. The script is also refusing to run on Windows 2000, simply stating it is prohibited from doing something. I have not yet tried Reflections X. So I will probably leave that alone. I do not have time to try a direct keyboard connection right now. I need to get a copy of the HP Pathworks 32 product for home use and see if that works. I can not get the autoscan feature to work. > John, how long are the cables? It's not clear from the description. > I'm using 5ft cables from my current switch to the two systems I have > and I don't think I could go any shorter. I can not find anything that admits to how long the cables are. From a crude eyeball estimate the cables look to be about 5 ft long. The instructions state that 8 ft is the longest that a video signal can be reliably delivered. But these cables are definitely not 8 ft long. There is no reason that the body of the switch has to be anywhere that it needs to be accessed. No buttons at all, just some LEDs that tell you which screen you are looking at. The instructions indicate that with a F1D084 CAT-5 Extender can be used to extend the length up to 500 ft. There also appears to be 4 port models and USB only models. From the FAQ in the manual: Q: What operating system does the Switch support? A: The Switch will support any operating system that runs on a PS/2 platform, It will also work with Sun(tm) and Mac(r) operating systems using the appropriate adapters.[snip] Operating systems include but are not limited to, DOS, Windows 95, 98, 2000, Me, NT, XP, Linux, and Novell NetWare 4.x/5.x. But this one took my by surprise as I have been using all three buttons on my digital 3 button mouse since I got this thing and they work fine on VMS. Q: Does the Switch function with the Microsoft IntelliMouse? A: Yes, the Switch will function with Microsoft, Logitech, Kensignton, as well as with all Belkin mice. The Switch will support only 2 mouse buttons. Please contact Belkin Technical Support for any compatibility questions you may have. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:19:28 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: disk drive spin direction Message-ID: <4uAJd.12869$HT6.2893@trnddc04> Al Dykes wrote: > In article , > Bill Todd wrote: > >>John Laird wrote: >> >>... >> >> Heads can and do sometimes stick on the >> >>>parking area, and not necessarily in a fatal fashion. >> >>Excellent point, given that the extremely light-weight arms required for >>good seek performance are likely to be considerably more tolerant of >>tension than of compression. >> >>Your sig reminds me of Tom Lehrer, who I'm glad to say is still >>irreverently among us but not, unfortunately, still producing his >>inimitable music (I think it's been re-released recently, though). >> >>- bill > > > > OT: A 4 CD set, excellent. > > What height do disk heads fly at these days ? > > 20 years ago there was a diagram that was widely copied that showed > the flying height of the disk head compared to a smoke particle, dust, > and the diameter of a human hair, in increasing steps that were nearly > an order or magnutude, each. Smoke was too big for the gap. It was on the back of the huge (zip-lock?) plastic bag that RK05's used to come in. IIRC, a hair was too big to fit in the picture, so it just included a 1/4 of it (in cross-section). I think modern disk heads fly much closer to the surface than RK05's did. > It hasn't been mentioned that while in operation the heads require > substantial downward pressure to keep the heads flying at the right > height. Back to poisoning pigeons... -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 2005 12:41:52 -0600 From: kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) Subject: Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA Message-ID: In article <+Mjfg+oTcKYR@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article , kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) writes: >> >> There's a straight-8 near the PDP-15. I went through the information age >> exhibit last summer. Scary to see stuff there that I'd worked on. > > Yep. And I had the same thing happen to me when I went through the > Air and Space annex out at Dulles. Not just the same model of > computer, _the same computer_. I was there the same week. What computers were displayed out there? One guy in our party admitted that there was an artifact on display that he had designed! And they still have an entire airplane of his at Garber, waiting for a place to display it. Of course the most popular question is why couldn't the founder of Fed Ex have donated the $60M so we could spell & pronounce the name of the museum :-) Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, except to encourage attendance in Christian churches; or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, except to require prayer in schools; or abridging the freedom of speech, except for those questioning the Bush administration; or of the press, except that not owned by Rupert Murdoch; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, except those protesting pre-emptive wars; and to petition the government for a redress of grievance, except those we don't like." -former U.S. Sen. Gary Hart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:10:59 -0000 From: "David Wade" Subject: Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA Message-ID: <35o5gkF4nlrqbU1@individual.net> > > Sweet.. Need $ and $.. That would be very nice, > have everything from pre-vacuum tube stuff on up. > A home for analog computers too, yeah.. I could see > it on 100 acres. Mostly indoors of course as geeks > don't like the hot weather much.. > > The place could become a location of pilgrimages where > acolytes could chant in octal and wizards could perform > 5-way merges on relational databases in an afternoon > while across the park, boy electricians made huge > sparks fly by selecting the right capacitors.. > > Microphones could be placed on the HDA's of grumbling > RA81's and during this activity, connected to > amplified subwoofers under the spinning platter-shaped > floor in the next room - a "hard disk ride" > "Ride the RA-81 Platter like a dust speck!! > Watch out for the heads!!" > Space mountain's got nothing on this one! > > Rides wouln't be the real attraction though, just a > minor diversion. The interactive exhibits of all kinds, > that's the key. The real VAXclusters and the 11/780 > with doors open to show off the cards. A LINUX Beowulf > cluster, paper tape, DECtape, 9-track tape, 8-track tape. > And the blinkenlights stuff in a room where the lights > dim evey several minutes or so. When the lights dim, > AM radios tuned to the music of each machine come on, > machines programmed to play music via the RFI. I > know some remember doing that on pdp8's and other > stately machines. > > On the other stuff, ever programmed an analog computer? Oddly enough yes, though it was via patch leads , pots and switchs. On the other hand it did simulate a range of problems really nicely... > Talk about an experience. There's lots of classic > technology pieces out there, tons of test equipment > with real CRT's, and machines like plasma generators > from depostion processes, ever notice how you can measure > plasma density by measuring the attenuation of a > microwave beam through the plasma chamber? > > The progress of everything high tech: > computers > RF > audio > Germanium transistors (if anyone recalls those) > plain old electricity > tesla coil (very very large) > open-frame dynamos > what else? > > Might cost what $100M to start? > > The only geek with enough $ to start something like that, > and enough daring to pull it off is Mr. Gates. > > It's wonderful and would probably make tons of > moolah.. Who's going to call Bill? > > Ok so I was known for wild posts.. but that's the best > thing I've heard of yet, a geek theme park. I'd pay to go. > > It's not going to happen before June though. That's the > timeframe we are looking at about now, so I'm back to > the subject at hand. > > Opcom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:47:48 GMT From: Keith Parris Subject: Re: Fault-tolerant VMS Message-ID: Tom M wrote: > The NSK hardware may not be appropriate. See > > http://www.realworldtech.com/forums/index.cfm?action=detail&PostNum=3044&Thread=113&entryID=45371&roomID=11 > > "This uses loosely-coupled duplex or triplex MPUs, with separate memories, > voting only at bus-synchronized I/O events. This works for our message-based > OS and transaction workloads, but it won't generalize to Unix etc." New concepts like "zones" had to be invented and implemented in VMS for the VAXft series. I have no doubt that if VMS Engineering were directed and funded to support the NonStop Itanium boxes, they'd be quite able to do so. If you are a customer who needs fault-tolerant hardware for VMS, you would need to let Mark Gorham know. He can be reached at the conventional firstname.lastname@hp.com e-mail address format. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:31:15 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Fault-tolerant VMS Message-ID: Keith Parris wrote: > Tom M wrote: >> The NSK hardware may not be appropriate. See >> >> http://www.realworldtech.com/forums/index.cfm?action=detail&PostNum=3044&Thr ead=113&entryID=45371&roomID=11 >> >> "This uses loosely-coupled duplex or triplex MPUs, with separate >> memories, voting only at bus-synchronized I/O events. This works for >> our message-based OS and transaction workloads, but it won't >> generalize to Unix etc." > > New concepts like "zones" had to be invented and implemented in VMS > for the VAXft series. I have no doubt that if VMS Engineering were > directed and funded to support the NonStop Itanium boxes, they'd be > quite able to do so. > > If you are a customer who needs fault-tolerant hardware for VMS, you > would need to let Mark Gorham know. He can be reached at the > conventional firstname.lastname@hp.com e-mail address format. Seems to me that a *pro-active* HP would be canvassing their VMS customer base asking the question. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 2005 19:08:58 -0800 From: google_groups_web@yahoo.com Subject: HAVE YOU HEARD THE GOOD NEWS! Message-ID: <1106708938.907883.327030@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Good News! Do you know how simple it is to go to Heaven after this life has ended? Some people believe that belonging to a local church, temple, mosque or synagogue will get them to Heaven. Others believe that water baptism, obeying the ten commandments or just being a good person will get them to Heaven. There are many other beliefs as well, but the good news about God's way to Heaven is found in the Holy Bible. The good news is that God came from Heaven to earth in the person of Jesus Christ over 2000 years ago and died for our sins(misdeeds). He was born in the land of Israel supernaturally to a virgin Jewish woman named Mary. He lived a sinless life for thirty-three years and then sacrificed His sinless blood and died on a cross to pay the death penalty for our sins. After Jesus was placed in a tomb He rose from the dead three days later as He said He would. The Holy Bible also tells us that Jesus Christ ascended into Heaven and that all who accept Him as their Lord and Saviour will live forever with Him in Heaven where there is no more death, sorrow, sickness and pain. The Bible says, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23) This verse in the Bible says, "For ALL HAVE SINNED, and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) This verse says, "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) In this passage the Bible clearly explains how simple it is to be saved and on your way to Heaven, "For if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you WILL BE SAVED." (Romans 10:9) You can be saved right now and on your way to Heaven if you will open your heart to Jesus and pray the following prayer: Dear Jesus Christ, I want to be saved so that I can have a home in Heaven when I die. I agree with You that I am a sinner. I believe You love me and want to save me. I believe that You bled and died on the cross to pay the penalty for my sins. I believe that You rose from the dead. Please forgive my sins and come into my heart and be my Lord and Saviour. Thank You Lord Jesus Christ for forgiving me and saving me through Your merciful grace. Amen. You are now a Christian if you said the prayer and allowed God to save you. Welcome to the family of God. Salvation is not a reward but a gift. The Bible says it this way, "For it is by GRACE you have been SAVED, through FAITH and this not from yourselves, it is the GIFT of God." (Ephesians 2:8) Nothing in the world is more important than your eternal destiny. The Bible says, "In Him(Jesus) we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins..." (Ephesians 1:7) If you have not yet made a decision to be saved, please do so now before it is too late. The reason why it is so important to be saved now is because you do not know exactly when you will die. You may die prematurely in a traffic accident, terrorist attack or some other way before you get another chance to be saved. The Bible tells us that we will spend eternity in Heaven or a place of eternal torment called Hell. It would be terrible to die and go to Hell when all you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour. Some people that have already made Jesus Christ their Lord and Saviour worry about losing their salvation. The Bible teaches Christians that we can never lose our salvation no matter what happens. The Bible says it this way, "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense Jesus Christ, the Righteous One." Yes my friend, Jesus Christ is able to save you and keep you saved. Please tell your family and friends, thanks! Have a great day! Internet Evangelist R.L. Grossi 1. http://www.biblegateway.com << Free Online Bible 2. http://www.free-hoster.com/goodnews << Passion of the Christ 3. http://www.carm.org/cults/cultlist.htm << Beware Of Cults 4. http://www.equip.org/free/DH198.htm << About Hell 5. http://www.powertochange.com/questions/qna2.html << Is Jesus God? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 01:33:45 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: LAT application port notification of events Message-ID: <41F739A7.A3E74878@teksavvy.com> Here is my goal: have a program that logs any serial port input from my router and dsl modem and any other device to a file, but allows a user to access the port for interactive use whenever necessary. This would have been quite easy if I could find out what lock is requested when an application program tries to assign a channel to a serial device. (with a blocking AST, my app could then relinquish the port, let the user do the interactive stuff and have a request to relock the port once it is fgreed by the user again). So, as a fall back, I realised I could use LAT for this. So application permanently assigns channel to the serial port, but also offers a LAT service so that a user can so SET HOST/LAT CHOCOLATE and connect to my application which would then relay keystrokes to/from the serial port. And the IO USers guide does show how to do this. However, what it does not show is how the application can be notified when someone has in fact connected to the LAT service (so that I can then switch from being a simple logger to being a relay between the lat port and the serial port), and more importantly, how to be notified when the user has disconnected from the last service (so that I can switch the app back to being a logger of serial port). Does anyone have any general details on how these two bits can be accomplished ? I am somewhat puzzled as to why the LAT driver doesn't behave similarly to the DECNET driver where a mailbox receives network messages about call setup, call termination, network problems etc. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:38:46 GMT From: "news.twcny.rr.com" Subject: Need Raid License for HSZ20 Raid Array 310 Message-ID: Hi, Hope someone can help me out of a jam. I need to revive a Raid Array 310 with an HSZ20 that lost its licenses. I've got the licenses, somewhere. Its been 6 years or so since I've seen them. Can someone please 'borrow' me a raid license until I can find mine? Thanks, Spencer skrass@twcny.rr.com ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 2005 17:36:24 -0800 From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote in message news:<41F5C349.B0D1F132@teksavvy.com>... > AEF wrote: > > your face (or whatever the expression is). I mean, suppose HP does > > start promoting VMS. Do we then forget the Alphacide and let people buy > > it? Do we continue to warn them not to buy it? > It isn't a question of warning people not to buy VMS. It is a question > of warning people that HP can't be trusted. There is quite a difference. > In terms of "what if HP starts to market VMS ?", ther is a simple answer > to this: > Ever since Palmer days, the cycle has been simple: let VMS slide into > oblivion until complaints from customers/cov rose to a certain loudness, > at which point, you do a token piece of marketing to stop the > complaints, and later revert to the previous policy of actively not > mentioning VMS, until the cycle begins again. > This has happened often enough that a single piece such as last week's > so called "web event" can't be viewed as a sign that HP is really > changing the way it is handling VMS from now on. Only time will tell if Agreed. I only said it was good to see VMS get top billing (amongst hp OSes, of course). > there is to be a real and permanent change in HP attitudes on VMS. > HP used to have the excuse that they didn't want to grow VMS on Alpha > since Alpha was dead. They no longer have any excuses NOT to market VMS > now that it runs on that IA64 thing. OK. > Go back to 2000 during the short lived renaissance, and you'll find > plenty of positive posts about the stuff Marcello was doing for VMS, > including PUBLIC POSTERS in bus stops in a european country (can't > remember which). But alas, even this didn't l;ast more than a few months > and then witherede away, and it took a while before people realised that > VMS was back to "no markleting allowed" mode in Compaq. Shortly after, > Alpha was being killed. So any speculation on what actually prompted this short lived renaissance? Can anyone here explain how it went right and then how it went so wrong? thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:56:46 -0500 From: "warren sander" Subject: Re: OpenVMS 8.2 Docs on web page? Message-ID: <41f6972e$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com> no it's not two-speed. it's the difference between 100 pages that have always been in the complier area and 30,000 pages that are brand new and must be branded by hand. (mostly from programs but I have to check them all individually). Plus I had to change every other page on the site for the color change for the announcement and all the announcement pages and other stuff you all don't see. They will be out before 8.2 goes out the door. "Richard Maher" wrote in message news:ct4q9k$g4i$1@sparta.btinternet.com... > Hi, > > >some like c, c++ are out already on > > the > > c and c++ areas. > > No there's a surprise :-( Two-speed VMS anyone? > > We get treated like Oracle treats VMS. > > Regards Richard Maher > > "warren sander" wrote in message > news:41f572cf$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com... > > The 82 docs are being worked. I expect this week or next week. > > > > as has been said the 82 ft docs are out there and i've heard not a whole > lot > > is > > changing. yes there will be more docs. some like c, c++ are out already on > > the > > c and c++ areas. > > > > > > "Ryan Moore" wrote in message > > news:Pine.LNX.4.61.0501220041100.15550@jaipur.local... > > > Now that 8.2 has been 'officially' released, any chance the 8.2 docs > will > > > be posted to the web page? We haven't received our doc updates yet and > I > > > would like to see the final release notes and new features manuals at > > > least. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > -Ryan > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 15:28:51 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: PDFs for HP C docs Message-ID: <41F6AC03.29D62CAB@teksavvy.com> Galen wrote: > Using Google and other search methods I haven't been able to find PDFs > for the VMS versions of the HP C language reference and users guide You need to specify whether you mean HP C or DEC C. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:48:53 -0800 From: Z Subject: Re: PDFs for HP C docs Message-ID: Galen wrote: > Using Google and other search methods I haven't been able to find PDFs > for the VMS versions of the HP C language reference and users guide > documents at hp.com, though it appears that the PDFs for Tru64 versions > might be available. See: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/os73_index.html Some PDFs are available. I usually d/l from the links in the Version 7.3-2 tab. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:24:54 +0000 (UTC) From: klewis@OMEGA.MITRE.ORG (Keith A. Lewis) Subject: Re: Pls Help with X over TCPIP Message-ID: k writes in article dated Sun, 23 Jan 2005 22:45:23 -0500: > mylinux% xhost+ > > MYVMS$ set display/create/node="mylinux"/transport=TCPIP > MYVMS$ mcr decw$puzzle > >I get: > > X Toolkit Error: Can't Open display > %DWT-F-NOMSG, Message number 03AB8204 That's the same error code I get when I forget to do "xhost +", or send a display to a non-logged-in console. Can you "telnet mylinux 6000" and get a connection? If not, the problem is definitely on the Linux end. >Also, sitting at the console, I can telnet to the mylinux, but I cannot >send a window back to the OpenVMS. In otherwords, the following fails: > > % export DISPLAY=myvms:0.0 > % xlogo > >I've run DECW$SESSION and changed the security to * * *, * * TCPIP, etc. > No luck. You also need to edit SYS$STARTUP:DECW$PRIVATE_SERVER_SETUP.COM (copy from TEMPLATE if it isn't there) to include TCPIP as a transport. Then restart decwindows or reboot. Again, "telnet myvms 6000" can help you diagnose this. --Keith Lewis klewis {at} mitre.org The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:47:52 -0500 From: k Subject: Re: Pls Help with X over TCPIP Message-ID: Thanks for the help! I now have a partial solution to the problem. The first half of the solution was that I needed: $ decw$server_transports == "DECNET,LOCAL,TCPIP" in SYS$MANAGER:DECW$PRIVATE_SERVER_SETUP.COM. Now that this is done, I can: $ telnet mylinux ... log in... % export DISPLAY=myvms:0.0 % xlogo and get a window from mylinux onto myvms. HOWEVER! what still does not work is the other direction. That is, from mylinux: % xhost + % telnet myvms ... login ... $ set display/create/node=mylinux/transport=tcpip $ mcr decw$examples:ico Cannot open display : non-translatable vms error code: 0x3D0294 %mcr-f-reject, connect to network object rejected Neither does: $ set display/create/trans=tcpip/node="mylinux" $ set display/create/trans=tcpip/node=MYLINUX $ set display/create/trans=tcpip/node="MYLINUX" $ set display/create/trans=tcpip/node="192.168.1.2" $ set display/create/trans=tcpip/node=192.168.1.2 and $ telnet /port=6000 mylinux %TELNET-I-TRYING, Trying ... 192.168.1.2 %TELNET-E-CONNFAIL, Failed to connect to remote host So, what is this about: > There is a known issue with connecting from recent releases of LINUX to > the DECwindows server. I know it is an issue with the latest releases, > not sure about earlier ones. The problem is that the server provides a > response to the initial connection message that is longer than defined > in the protocol and now the LINUX client detects this. Can you elaborate or point me to more definitive information. Haven't found a clear solution on google. Thanks! k martinkirby12@yahoo.co.uk wrote: >>from my linux box into the OpenVMS machine and: >> >> MYVMS$ set display/create/node="mylinux"/transport=TCPIP >> MYVMS$ mcr decw$puzzle >> > > > Try running DECW$EXAMPLES:ICO instead of puzzle - it gives better error > messages. > > Try using the IP address instead of node name in the SET DISPLAY > command. > > Try using telnet from the OpenVMS system to the LINUX system on port > 6000, to see if it is a DECwindows or network issue. > > >>I get: >> >> X Toolkit Error: Can't Open display >> %DWT-F-NOMSG, Message number 03AB8204 >> > > > $ set message sys$message:DECW$DWTMSG.EXE > $ exit %X3AB8204 > %DWT-F-DWTABORT, xtoolkit fatal error > > Which doesn't add anything. Just thought I'ld see what the error was. > > >>.... >>Also, sitting at the console, I can telnet to the mylinux, but I > > cannot > >>send a window back to the OpenVMS. In otherwords, the following > > fails: > >> % export DISPLAY=myvms:0.0 >> % xlogo >> >>I've run DECW$SESSION and changed the security to * * *, * * TCPIP, > > etc. > >> No luck. >> > > > You do need to tell the DECwindows server to load TCP/IP. Either by > setting up DECW$SERVER_TRANSPORTS in the > SYS$MANAGER:DECW$PRIVATE_SERVER_SETUP.COM file or by setting the > DECW$INSTALL_TCPIP (I think that is correct) logical. > > There is a known issue with connecting from recent releases of LINUX to > the DECwindows server. I know it is an issue with the latest releases, > not sure about earlier ones. The problem is that the server provides a > response to the initial connection message that is longer than defined > in the protocol and now the LINUX client detects this. > > ---- > > The "Managing DECwindows Motif for OpenVMS" manual should be re-issued > when the OpenVMS V8.2 documentations are put on the web. It includes an > enhanced section on troubleshooting TCP/IP connection issues with > DECwindows. > > Martin Kirby > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:56:30 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Pls Help with X over TCPIP Message-ID: <41F706C9.2CE988A7@teksavvy.com> k wrote: > $ telnet /port=6000 mylinux > %TELNET-I-TRYING, Trying ... 192.168.1.2 > %TELNET-E-CONNFAIL, Failed to connect to remote host This would mean that the problem isn't at the VMS side of X. If the VMS host can telnet to port 23 (regular port) of your linux host, it means that there is TCPIP connectivity. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that your linux side (the X server/X terminal software) is blocking inbound calls. If, from my mac, I try to connect to my VAX's port 6000, I connect and then get an error message in ascii about not the right protocol (since the telnet sofware isn't sending the right X protocol packets). If my VAX connects to my MAC's port 6000, I get connected, but no message, but the connection is maintained. So if I had to bet some chocolate bars on this, I'd say that your linux host is blocking inbound calls. This could be at the TCPIP level, or in the X server software which doesn't have the right config to allow your VMS host to connect. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:27:34 -0800 From: "C.W.Holeman II" Subject: Promoting Open Source on VMS (Was: Why growing the VMS installed base is importa Message-ID: <10vdpg6gqeknda2@corp.supernews.com> John Smith wrote: > Thanks Kerry. Yes, I had seen those. > > I had suggested to HP that they take a few million dollars and hire a > small handful of under-employed talented VMS experienced developers to > port the top 3-5 open source apps still not ported in a variety of > categories to VMS over the next year or so. Had the suggestion been acted > upon when first suggested, there would have been more to crow about at the > webcast last Tuesday and in the plethora of trade rag articles that > appears at that time...."HP Serious about Open Source on VMS....hundreds > of new apps available". An opportunity squandered due to lack of vision or > cojones or both. Here is an old post that seems relevant: http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?q=hoffman+vms+sourceforge+compile+farm links to: "VMS system on the sourceforge.net Compile Farm?" "comp.os.vms - Feb 6 2002, 1:06 pm by Hoff Hoffman" > I might be able to scrounge up hardware and licenses -- anybody have > details on the logistics and particularly the system management > requirements for inclusion in the Sourceforge build farm? >... > Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman OpenVMS Engineering > hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com -- C.W.Holeman II cwh5ii@Julian5Locals.com remove the fives ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 15:44:20 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: RFA string format Message-ID: <41F6AFA3.6ED7B69B@teksavvy.com> ALL-IN 1 makes quite a bit of use of the RFA to access records, but only after having obtained the record's RFA by accessing it via key (or sequentially too). In other words, once you've accessed the record the "expensive" way, further acesses can be done by RFA to make it more efficient. )beyond the fact that A1 caches the most recently read record). However, the RFA is never stored on disk. Are there any applications that would actually store the RFA on disk as part of some homemade indexing etc ? Or would this be a big no-no since RFAs cannot be trusted to be permanent ? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:51:25 -0500 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: RFA string format Message-ID: <41F6BF5D.7040503@tsoft-inc.com> Jan van der Weijde wrote: > Are you sure RFA's are different per file type ? I'm not SURE of anything. But I did 2 bery brief and abreviated tests, and: For a relative fixed file, I basically got back a 48 bit unsigned binary number with a value of the record index. I went past 65536 to insure getting into the 17th bit. For an indexed fixed file, I got results similar to that reported by Alan Frisbie, the third word appeared to possibly be an address, possibly the starting block number, for a bucket. The first word appeared to the index of the record in the bucket. A liberal dose of APPEARED needs to be applied to this. > In various HP documentation I read they are the same: > "Random access by RFA is supported for all disk files. Whenever RMS > successfully accesses a record, an internal representation of the record's > location is returned in the 6-byte RAB field RAB$W_RFA. When a program wants > to retrieve the record using random access by RFA, RMS uses this internal > data to retrieve the record. " > > Also manual > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/DOC/731FINAL/DOCUMENTATION/PDF/OVMS_731_FILE_APP.PDF, > (table 2-1, page 2-2), does not mention diffrent RFA's per type. > > Thanks, > Jan > > "Dave Froble" schreef in bericht > news:41F62915.602@tsoft-inc.com... > >>JF Mezei wrote: >> >> >>>Question: >>> >>>For database systems such as Oracle or RDB, how do they access their >>>data inside their database files ? Aren't those considered to be raw >>>data container files by RMS ? >>> >>>Do these database applications make use of RFAs at all ? Or do they work >>>only with raw byte offsets, or just relative block numbers inside a file >>> > ? > >>RFAs are used within an RMS file. The databases don't use RMS, thus >> > wouldn't > >>use RFAs. >> >>I did a bit more playing around, this time with an indexed file. It seems >> > that > >>an RFA for a relative file and a RFA for an indexed file are two totally >>seperate things. Wish there was some documentation on RFAs. >> >> > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:43:20 -0500 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: RFA string format Message-ID: Jan van der Weijde wrote: > Are you sure RFA's are different per file type ? Yes. > > In various HP documentation I read they are the same: No, you just misinterpreted what you read: it does not say that the internal representations are the same for all file types. ... >> Wish there was some documentation on RFAs. There is no documentation about the internal structure of RFAs because they are meant to be opaque. Among other things, this could allow future extensions without breaking current programs. That said, their internal structure has already been described accurately in this thread (save possibly for the indexed file record ID breaking up the two words of VBN: that's not the way I remember it), at least the structure that obtained two decades ago. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:46:01 -0500 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: RFA string format Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > ALL-IN 1 makes quite a bit of use of the RFA to access records, but only > after having obtained the record's RFA by accessing it via key (or > sequentially too). In other words, once you've accessed the record the > "expensive" way, further acesses can be done by RFA to make it more > efficient. )beyond the fact that A1 caches the most recently read record). > > However, the RFA is never stored on disk. > > Are there any applications that would actually store the RFA on disk as > part of some homemade indexing etc ? Or would this be a big no-no since > RFAs cannot be trusted to be permanent ? RFA's *can* be trusted to be permanent, unless you make an explicit decision to use some utility to reorganize or copy (non-block-mode) an indexed file or truncate a sequential to a point prior to the record to which the RFA applies. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:17:37 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: RFA string format Message-ID: <41F6D387.47C3230E@teksavvy.com> Dave Froble wrote: > For an indexed fixed file, I got results similar to that reported by Alan > Frisbie, the third word appeared to possibly be an address, possibly the > starting block number, for a bucket. From the information below, which parameters tell me how many index entries fit in one bucket ? The first byte of the RFA display below is shared by a variable number of records that goes up to 9 if I counted correctly. And this listing, ordered by key 0, the value of the first byte is sorted in ascending order. The second to last byte is ordered sequentially for records that share the first byte. (I assume the allin-1 display value is a byte by byte display of little endian words). Here is what I get for a small indexed file: I think the relevant FDL stuff: AREA 0 ALLOCATION 306 BEST_TRY_CONTIGUOUS yes BUCKET_SIZE 6 EXTENSION 78 KEY 0 DATA_KEY_COMPRESSION no DATA_AREA 0 DATA_FILL 100 INDEX_AREA 1 INDEX_COMPRESSION yes INDEX_FILL 100 LEVEL1_INDEX_AREA 1 SEG0_LENGTH 20 ANALYSIS_OF_KEY 0 DATA_FILL 72 DATA_KEY_COMPRESSION 0 DATA_RECORD_COUNT 78 DATA_SPACE_OCCUPIED 96 DEPTH 1 INDEX_COMPRESSION 48 INDEX_FILL 6 INDEX_SPACE_OCCUPIED 6 LEVEL1_RECORD_COUNT 16 MEAN_DATA_LENGTH 1606 MEAN_INDEX_LENGTH 22 Rec:1 RFA: %#050000000100 Rec:2 RFA: %#050000000200 Rec:3 RFA: %#050000000300 Rec:4 RFA: %#050000000400 Rec:5 RFA: %#050000000500 Rec:6 RFA: %#050000000600 Rec:7 RFA: %#050000000700 Rec:8 RFA: %#0B0000000100 Rec:9 RFA: %#0B0000000300 Rec:10 RFA: %#0B0000000500 Rec:11 RFA: %#110000000100 Rec:12 RFA: %#110000000200 Rec:13 RFA: %#110000000400 Rec:14 RFA: %#110000000500 Rec:15 RFA: %#170000000100 Rec:16 RFA: %#170000000200 Rec:17 RFA: %#170000000300 Rec:18 RFA: %#170000000400 Rec:19 RFA: %#170000000500 Rec:20 RFA: %#170000000600 Rec:21 RFA: %#1D0000000100 Rec:22 RFA: %#1D0000000200 Rec:23 RFA: %#1D0000000400 Rec:24 RFA: %#1D0000000500 Rec:25 RFA: %#1D0000000600 Rec:26 RFA: %#230000000100 Rec:27 RFA: %#230000000200 Rec:28 RFA: %#230000000300 Rec:29 RFA: %#230000000400 Rec:30 RFA: %#230000000500 Rec:31 RFA: %#230000000600 Rec:32 RFA: %#230000000700 Rec:33 RFA: %#290000000100 Rec:34 RFA: %#290000000200 Rec:35 RFA: %#290000000300 Rec:36 RFA: %#290000000400 Rec:37 RFA: %#290000000500 Rec:38 RFA: %#290000000600 Rec:39 RFA: %#2F0000000100 Rec:40 RFA: %#2F0000000200 Rec:41 RFA: %#2F0000000300 Rec:42 RFA: %#2F0000000400 Rec:43 RFA: %#2F0000000500 Rec:44 RFA: %#2F0000000600 Rec:45 RFA: %#2F0000000700 Rec:46 RFA: %#350000000100 Rec:47 RFA: %#350000000200 Rec:48 RFA: %#350000000300 Rec:49 RFA: %#350000000400 Rec:50 RFA: %#350000000500 Rec:51 RFA: %#350000000700 Rec:52 RFA: %#3B0000000900 Rec:53 RFA: %#3B0000000800 Rec:54 RFA: %#3B0000000100 Rec:55 RFA: %#3B0000000700 Rec:56 RFA: %#3B0000000200 Rec:57 RFA: %#3B0000000300 Rec:58 RFA: %#3B0000000400 Rec:59 RFA: %#3B0000000500 Rec:60 RFA: %#3B0000000600 Rec:61 RFA: %#410000000100 Rec:62 RFA: %#410000000200 Rec:63 RFA: %#410000000300 Rec:64 RFA: %#410000000400 Rec:65 RFA: %#410000000500 Rec:66 RFA: %#410000000600 Rec:67 RFA: %#470000000100 Rec:68 RFA: %#470000000300 Rec:69 RFA: %#470000000800 Rec:70 RFA: %#470000000400 Rec:71 RFA: %#470000000500 Rec:72 RFA: %#470000000600 Rec:73 RFA: %#470000000700 Rec:74 RFA: %#4D0000000600 Rec:75 RFA: %#4D0000000100 Rec:76 RFA: %#4D0000000200 Rec:77 RFA: %#4D0000000300 Rec:78 RFA: %#4D0000000400 ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2005.051 ************************