INFO-VAX Tue, 25 Jan 2005 Volume 2005 : Issue 49 Contents: %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data inconsistency i Re: Apathy on comp.os.vms Re: Apathy on comp.os.vms Re: DEC Keyboard Question Re: disk drive spin direction Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA Re: es45 cluster with eva Fault-tolerant VMS Re: Fault-tolerant VMS Re: Fault-tolerant VMS HP to be SAPed again? Re: HP to be SAPed again? Re: HP to be SAPed again? Re: HP to be SAPed again? Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Re: mrtravel's next cruise - to Divorce Court.. Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Re: OpenVMS 8.2 Docs on web page? Re: OpenVMS 8.2 Docs on web page? Re: RFA string format Re: RFA string format Re: RFA string format Re: RFA string format Re: RFA string format Re: RFA string format Re: RFA string format Re: RFA string format Re: RFA string format Re: RFA string format Re: RFA string format Re: RFA string format Re: TCP/IP on OpenVMS 7.3 TCPIP Services - Corrupted Files?? Re: TCPIP Services - Corrupted Files?? Re: TCPIP Services - Corrupted Files?? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 22:31:39 -0800 From: John Hixson Subject: %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data inconsistency i Message-ID: <5-Cdnfchyb9RemjcRVn-vg@inreach.com> Hello VMS users, I am getting this error when attempting to install alot of software. I get this error on OpenVMS 7.3 on a alpha pws 600au: %DCL-E-INVIFNEST, invalid IF-THEN-ELSE nesting structure or data inconsistency This error shows up when I attempt to install oracle, fortran, and compaq's C compiler (cc065) using @sys$update:vmsinstal . Is there a way I can fix this? Can I modify a script? This is starting to really irritate me =). Thanks, John Hixson ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 2005 13:54:27 -0600 From: kuhrt@nospammy.encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) Subject: Re: Apathy on comp.os.vms Message-ID: In article , young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes: > In article <41F2BB04.706220F7@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei writes: > >> Last week, there was an announcement by Ann Livermore that HP wasn't >> interested in growing VMS and was happy just keeping the installed base happy. > > Spin. > >> Yet, this week, this was announced, and people seemed resigned to accept >> it without much of a comment. > > Like CBS, depends on the spin. JF you've been fudding up > VMS for so long , it's pitiful. > > I suppose you care to ignore Mark Gohram's report that > 10-15% of VMS customers are new customers and that VMS has > been growing recently. > > http://www.shannonknowshpc.com/stories.php?story=05/01/18/0435366 > > Mark: The OpenVMS business has seen recent growth in the low double digits year > over year. It should also be noted that between 10 to 15 percent of our > business comes for accounts that are new to OpenVMS. > >> VMS is being ported to a dying platform nobody wants, HP isn't >> interested in growing VMS. Linux is free and growing. Are people now >> resigned to the inevitable and don't have the energy to fight anymore ? > > Look JF , we've seen your drivel for so long. Here's a clue - > you're in so many kill files you won't get much response either way. I have a seventy entry kill file and over sixty of them are JF related. If we don't feed the trolls, they will eventually starve and die. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:34:50 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Apathy on comp.os.vms Message-ID: <41F577FD.DD51476B@teksavvy.com> Marty Kuhrt wrote: > I have a seventy entry kill file and over sixty of them are JF related. > If we don't feed the trolls, they will eventually starve and die. If I were you, I wouldn't brag about this. Your technical expertise can't be too high if you need that many filters to filter out anything with "mezei" in it. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 2005 20:54:54 -0800 From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: DEC Keyboard Question Message-ID: <1106628894.176258.36870@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Ken Fairfield wrote: > I was the instigator of one of those discussions, from Sept.2003. :-) > Yes, I remember the name. :) > I don't know specifically about the Outlook ES, but when I queried > Avocent's technical support that Fall, the answer I got back was, > > "While our switches do support mode 3 keyboard, it is > currently only in the 101/102 keyboard layout. The > additional keys would not pass through." That is very bad news. :( > > I got similar negative responses from Adder, Linksys and Belkin. > I didn't expect anything different from Belkin, but Adder had a > nice little switch I would've liked to buy...too bad... *sigh* > > As others have said, all the LK46y-xx keyboards (at least the US > versions) have the same key layout and are all compatible with a > standard PS/2 keyboard connection. IIRC, the LK46W-xx is white. > I have an LK461-A2 (beige) at work and an LK462-A2 (black) at home. > The new LK463-xx has a USB connector, plus a USB-PS/2 adapter, so > it can be used with both Alphas (and older PCs), and with new PCs > and (presumably) Integrity (IA64) servers. The only difference > I've noticed between the various models is that the newer ones feel > cheaper/have poorer action. :-( > > Regards, Ken After some additional thought I had come to the conclusion that the LK461's were the beige and the "W's" were white. I didn't know about the black ones and the USB versions. The LK451's that John Malmberg mentioned seem to be in short supply. I have found none listed on Ebay and only one DEC reseller in the States that lists them in inventory ( http://www.computertradingpost.com/webpages/rjr.htm ). I haven't had a chance to call and get the price. They are not new, but reconditioned. I think I will still aquire one of these and try things out, but I'm not going to have any great expectations. Thanks for everyone's input. John H. Reinhardt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:56:41 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: disk drive spin direction Message-ID: AEF wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <1106280925.269656.309280@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, >> "AEF" writes: >>> >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> In article > <1106278767.695842.317340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, >>>> "AEF" writes: >>>>> Which way does a disk drive spin? I vaguely remember hearing >>>>> something about it spinning IN to the heads, unlike a stereo >>>>> turntable. Do I recall right? >>>>> >>>>> Can anyone here answer this authoritatively? And also answer Why? >>>>> if it spins IN to the heads. >>>> >>>> Real disk drives don't have spiral tracks at all. They write >>> >>> Yes, I know that. But that has nothing to do with the question. >>> >>>> data in concentric circles. CD's are written in a spiral in the >>>> opposite direction as an old vinyl record. I assume DVDs do the >>>> same. I don't know the reason for the direction, or even if there >>>> is a reason. >>> >>> But which way does the platter(s) spin relative to the head >>> assembly? Imagine -- *except* for the circle vs. spiral aspect of >>> it -- a disk platter(s) and its head assembly to be like a record >>> on a stereo turntable. Does the platter(s) spin relative to the >>> heads in the same direction or in the opposite direction as the >>> turntable? >>> >>> Thanks. >> >> >> So, you mean does it spin clockwise or counter-clockwise? >> That I don't know for sure. I couldn't even guess if they are all >> the same. Why would it matter? > > In the case of a stereo turntable, if you spun the record backwards > (CCW), it wouldn't work too well! I would have thought that the same > would be true for disk drives, but maybe there is some reason it's > better to run them "backwards". And if so, I'd like to know, and why. > > Why would it matter? Because I'm curious! I like to know how things > work. I find things like that interesting. I find it fascinating that > such devices could work so well for so little. > As to my original question: I guess that no one here knows. Counter-clockwise in the northern hemisphere, clockwise in the southern :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:09:08 GMT From: patrick jankowiak Subject: Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA Message-ID: <41F5AA20.6020608@swbell.net> Morten Reistad wrote: > In article <41F31CAE.6000803@swbell.net>, > patrick jankowiak wrote: > >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> >> >>>I have wanted to start a computer museum here at the University >>>for a long time. I figured if I could get commitments from a >>>few corporations for operating funds I could probably convince >>>the University to give me the necessary space. But I really >>>don't know how to go about finding corporate sponsers. :-( >>>My idea is to have a real hands on facility where people can >>>come in and actually play with the equipment. I would also >>>make as much of it as I could available on the INTERNET with >>>guest accounts. But, I'm probably just dreaming again. > > > Corporate sponsors are just as shallow. We need to come up > with a workable museum first. > > >>I wish we could do this. There's a hell of a datacenter here just waiting to be unzipped. It's what we wanted.. (makes me >>want to listen to "all we ever wanted" by Bauhaus) Man I am trying to keep a good mindset but this step is >> getting me down. It has to be done though. >> >>OPCOM > > > A computer museum will need large amounts of space; as well as > access to largish amounts of energy when someone decides to run > the machines. Much can be mocked up for the standard visitor, using > emulators to show software on the correct terminals. But machines > must be kept intact. We also have the issue of documentation. > > Such space fast becomes the major problem. It cannot be in or very > near major cities, because land is too expensive there. And the scale > of this is big enough for a full theme park. > > So why not do this? > > Make a theme park around technology development and preservation. > Remember that the audience is a premium one for many locations. > The nerds or wannabees that visit such places have above average > income, are not very inclined to boozing and gambling, and tend > to leave the facilities without damage. > > It will have to be located somewhere outside the mainstream, and > must be the magnet for people itself. Just like Disney World. > > -- mrr > > Sweet.. Need $ and $.. That would be very nice, have everything from pre-vacuum tube stuff on up. A home for analog computers too, yeah.. I could see it on 100 acres. Mostly indoors of course as geeks don't like the hot weather much.. The place could become a location of pilgrimages where acolytes could chant in octal and wizards could perform 5-way merges on relational databases in an afternoon while across the park, boy electricians made huge sparks fly by selecting the right capacitors.. Microphones could be placed on the HDA's of grumbling RA81's and during this activity, connected to amplified subwoofers under the spinning platter-shaped floor in the next room - a "hard disk ride" "Ride the RA-81 Platter like a dust speck!! Watch out for the heads!!" Space mountain's got nothing on this one! Rides wouln't be the real attraction though, just a minor diversion. The interactive exhibits of all kinds, that's the key. The real VAXclusters and the 11/780 with doors open to show off the cards. A LINUX Beowulf cluster, paper tape, DECtape, 9-track tape, 8-track tape. And the blinkenlights stuff in a room where the lights dim evey several minutes or so. When the lights dim, AM radios tuned to the music of each machine come on, machines programmed to play music via the RFI. I know some remember doing that on pdp8's and other stately machines. On the other stuff, ever programmed an analog computer? Talk about an experience. There's lots of classic technology pieces out there, tons of test equipment with real CRT's, and machines like plasma generators from depostion processes, ever notice how you can measure plasma density by measuring the attenuation of a microwave beam through the plasma chamber? The progress of everything high tech: computers RF audio Germanium transistors (if anyone recalls those) plain old electricity tesla coil (very very large) open-frame dynamos what else? Might cost what $100M to start? The only geek with enough $ to start something like that, and enough daring to pull it off is Mr. Gates. It's wonderful and would probably make tons of moolah.. Who's going to call Bill? Ok so I was known for wild posts.. but that's the best thing I've heard of yet, a geek theme park. I'd pay to go. It's not going to happen before June though. That's the timeframe we are looking at about now, so I'm back to the subject at hand. Opcom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:15:41 GMT From: patrick jankowiak Subject: Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA Message-ID: <41F5ABA9.105@swbell.net> And their website wants me to download something called a "plug-in". I don't trust objects that want to download and run here, just to view a site. Thanks for the heads up. I am asking alot of questions of those contacting me (and freely answering alot more too). Even though I definitely have my moments of levity, I am very serious about this matter. Opcom Christian Corti wrote: > In alt.sys.pdp11 Keith Cayemberg wrote: > >>HNF - Heinz Nixdorf MuseumsForum >>http://www.hnf.de/ > > > Don't give anything to them if you don't want it to be put somewhere in > a corner or in the cellar and be handled by a staff that really doesn't > know what they have. Even though they have lots of money they are not what > a real computer museum should be (having technical staff, being able to > repair and operate the machines, etc.). As the name implies they are > more a forum for social events (conferences etc.) than a museum. > > Christian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:24:51 GMT From: patrick jankowiak Subject: Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA Message-ID: <41F5ADCF.10709@swbell.net> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <41F31B4C.9030206@swbell.net>, > patrick jankowiak writes: > >>John Smith wrote: >> >> >>>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> >>> >>>>In article <41f284c5$0$812$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net>, >>>>Keith Cayemberg writes: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>In article <41f237b0$0$821$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net>, >>>>>>Keith Cayemberg writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>MoS | Museum of Science, Boston >>>>>>>http://www.tcm.org/ >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Isn't this the place that trashed all their real computer stuff >>>>>>including stuff that had been donated by people like Dennis >>>>>>Ritchie? I sure didn't see anything vintage computer related >>>>>>on thier website. >>>>>> >>>>>>bill >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Could be. That is maybe why they are no longer call themselves "The >>>>>Computer Museum" (TCM). Then it is good that such proposals are >>>>>discussed in a forum. >>>>> >>>>>Thanks Bill. >>>>> >>>> >>>>I have wanted to start a computer museum here at the University >>>>for a long time. I figured if I could get commitments from a >>>>few corporations for operating funds I could probably convince >>>>the University to give me the necessary space. But I really >>>>don't know how to go about finding corporate sponsers. :-( >>>>My idea is to have a real hands on facility where people can >>>>come in and actually play with the equipment. I would also >>>>make as much of it as I could available on the INTERNET with >>>>guest accounts. But, I'm probably just dreaming again. >>> >>> >>> >>>The Smithsonian ought to be interested in something like this. >>> >>> >> >>I just shot them an e-mail. > > > I doubt they are interested and I wouldn't trust them with it > even if they said they were. > > > bill > They have not broken down any doors to respond. I am generally nervous about museums as I have said. We planned to own the eventual property and therefore not be at the whim of landlords or evil boards of directors. There were over the time period many 'almost condemned' buildings in Dallas. Almost condemned simply means "needs this or that or we will tear it down" etc. There was a nice 10000 sq ft warehouse with leaky roof for $60K, with a loading dock and street access to the front doors. Problem was the crackheads.. I'd have to be bustin' a cap from time to time.. hehe. Opcom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:28:49 GMT From: patrick jankowiak Subject: Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA Message-ID: <41F5AEBE.4010802@swbell.net> John Smith wrote: > patrick jankowiak wrote: > >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> >> >>>I have wanted to start a computer museum here at the University >>>for a long time. I figured if I could get commitments from a >>>few corporations for operating funds I could probably convince >>>the University to give me the necessary space. But I really >>>don't know how to go about finding corporate sponsers. :-( >>>My idea is to have a real hands on facility where people can >>>come in and actually play with the equipment. I would also >>>make as much of it as I could available on the INTERNET with >>>guest accounts. But, I'm probably just dreaming again. >>> >>>bill >>> >> >>Bill, >> >>I wish we could do this. There's a hell of a datacenter here just >> waiting to be unzipped. It's what we wanted.. (makes me want to >>listen to "all we ever wanted" by Bauhaus) Man I am trying to keep a >>good mindset but this step is getting me down. It has to be done >>though. > > > > Maybe there's an unused hanger at Davis Monthan AFB (the "Boneyard") in > Arizona that the collection can be housed in :-) or Area 51 ;-) > > Or maybe Hollywood would want them to use in a sci-fi movie.....sort of like > the scene in 'Close Encounters of the Third Kind' where Flight 19's planes > emerge out of the swirling sandstorm..... > > We know what hollywood would do to them. :( ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:32:58 GMT From: patrick jankowiak Subject: Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA Message-ID: <41F5AFB6.4050104@swbell.net> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <41F3196B.4080708@swbell.net>, > patrick jankowiak writes: > >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> >>>In article <41f284c5$0$812$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net>, >>> Keith Cayemberg writes: >>> >>> >>>>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>In article <41f237b0$0$821$9b4e6d93@newsread2.arcor-online.net>, >>>>> Keith Cayemberg writes: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>MoS | Museum of Science, Boston >>>>>>http://www.tcm.org/ >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Isn't this the place that trashed all their real computer stuff >>>>>including stuff that had been donated by people like Dennis >>>>>Ritchie? I sure didn't see anything vintage computer related >>>>>on thier website. >>>>> >>>>>bill >>>>> >>>> >>>>Could be. That is maybe why they are no longer call themselves "The >>>>Computer Museum" (TCM). Then it is good that such proposals are >>>>discussed in a forum. >>>> >>>>Thanks Bill. >>>> >>> >>> >>>I have wanted to start a computer museum here at the University >>>for a long time. I figured if I could get commitments from a >>>few corporations for operating funds I could probably convince >>>the University to give me the necessary space. But I really >>>don't know how to go about finding corporate sponsers. :-( >>>My idea is to have a real hands on facility where people can >>>come in and actually play with the equipment. I would also >>>make as much of it as I could available on the INTERNET with >>>guest accounts. But, I'm probably just dreaming again. >>> >>>bill >>> >> >>I have some experience with such entities. Unless permanent space >>is allocated, items are often eventually disposed of >>unceremoniously and in an ugly manner. I witnessed this at the >>"texas broadcast museum". The volunteers were suddenly locked >>out, and the BOD privately sold off many assets to line their >>own pockets, and the stuff that was too big to sell was trashed >>(including the Voice of America broadcasting console and an >>ancient 5000 watt RCA AM transmitter) and the place now converted >>to guided tours hands-off, beginning and ending in the gift shop >>which had been the tech lab where exhibits were serviced.. May >>the BOD rot for that disgrace. >> >>I am not saying that's what would happen, but I am concerned for >>the future of our historical charges and the legacy they bespeak. >> > > > That can happen no matter where the items go, as should be > evident given the history of the Boston Computer Museum. > I am configdent that so long as I could continue to garner > corportate sponsorship in the form of small (small to any > real corporation) grants to cover operating expenses like > payroll for the workers/curators [mostly drawn from the > ranks of students which would a) keep the cost down, > b) make the operation even more in-line with the mission > of the University, and c) provide experience and learning > to the students that I personally think would be invaluable] > and acquisition of additional exhibits, keeping space would > not be a problem. > > bill > Well, please contact me if you think you can do this. I am open to discussion, just send an e-mail to me at the web page with contact info, and I can call you, we can always talk about it. Opcom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 23:20:48 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: disposition of largest private DEC collection in USA Message-ID: patrick jankowiak wrote: > Morten Reistad wrote: > >> In article <41F31CAE.6000803@swbell.net>, >> patrick jankowiak wrote: >> >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> I have wanted to start a computer museum here at the University >>>> for a long time. I figured if I could get commitments from a >>>> few corporations for operating funds I could probably convince >>>> the University to give me the necessary space. But I really >>>> don't know how to go about finding corporate sponsers. :-( >>>> My idea is to have a real hands on facility where people can >>>> come in and actually play with the equipment. I would also >>>> make as much of it as I could available on the INTERNET with >>>> guest accounts. But, I'm probably just dreaming again. >> >> >> Corporate sponsors are just as shallow. We need to come up >> with a workable museum first. >> >> >>> I wish we could do this. There's a hell of a datacenter here just >>> waiting to be unzipped. It's what we wanted.. (makes me want to >>> listen to "all we ever wanted" by Bauhaus) Man I am trying to keep >>> a good mindset but this step is getting me down. It has to be done >>> though. >>> >>> OPCOM >> >> >> A computer museum will need large amounts of space; as well as >> access to largish amounts of energy when someone decides to run >> the machines. Much can be mocked up for the standard visitor, using >> emulators to show software on the correct terminals. But machines >> must be kept intact. We also have the issue of documentation. >> >> Such space fast becomes the major problem. It cannot be in or very >> near major cities, because land is too expensive there. And the scale >> of this is big enough for a full theme park. >> >> So why not do this? >> >> Make a theme park around technology development and preservation. >> Remember that the audience is a premium one for many locations. >> The nerds or wannabees that visit such places have above average >> income, are not very inclined to boozing and gambling, and tend >> to leave the facilities without damage. >> >> It will have to be located somewhere outside the mainstream, and >> must be the magnet for people itself. Just like Disney World. >> >> -- mrr >> >> > > Sweet.. Need $ and $.. That would be very nice, > have everything from pre-vacuum tube stuff on up. > A home for analog computers too, yeah.. I could see > it on 100 acres. Mostly indoors of course as geeks > don't like the hot weather much.. > > The place could become a location of pilgrimages where > acolytes could chant in octal and wizards could perform > 5-way merges on relational databases in an afternoon > while across the park, boy electricians made huge > sparks fly by selecting the right capacitors.. > > Microphones could be placed on the HDA's of grumbling > RA81's and during this activity, connected to > amplified subwoofers under the spinning platter-shaped > floor in the next room - a "hard disk ride" > "Ride the RA-81 Platter like a dust speck!! > Watch out for the heads!!" > Space mountain's got nothing on this one! > > Rides wouln't be the real attraction though, just a > minor diversion. The interactive exhibits of all kinds, > that's the key. The real VAXclusters and the 11/780 > with doors open to show off the cards. A LINUX Beowulf > cluster, paper tape, DECtape, 9-track tape, 8-track tape. > And the blinkenlights stuff in a room where the lights > dim evey several minutes or so. When the lights dim, > AM radios tuned to the music of each machine come on, > machines programmed to play music via the RFI. I > know some remember doing that on pdp8's and other > stately machines. > > On the other stuff, ever programmed an analog computer? > Talk about an experience. There's lots of classic > technology pieces out there, tons of test equipment > with real CRT's, and machines like plasma generators > from depostion processes, ever notice how you can measure > plasma density by measuring the attenuation of a > microwave beam through the plasma chamber? > > The progress of everything high tech: > computers > RF > audio > Germanium transistors (if anyone recalls those) > plain old electricity > tesla coil (very very large) > open-frame dynamos > what else? > > Might cost what $100M to start? > > The only geek with enough $ to start something like that, > and enough daring to pull it off is Mr. Gates. > > It's wonderful and would probably make tons of > moolah.. Who's going to call Bill? You'd probably have more luck with Allen, Wozniak, and Ellison. Maybe even Ross Perot. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 19:43:19 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: es45 cluster with eva Message-ID: <41F5A436.966D9BAF@comcast.net> ugex wrote: > > Hi Guys: > > I want to assembly a cluster with es45 and ds25 under ovms 7.3-r1 but I > have an Eva storage. > > Some one know any documentation about to how configure clusters with > eva..? You'll be doing what's known as an "NI" (network interconnect) cluster. Otherwise, both machines simply access the same SAN. The cluster configuration manual is on-line. See: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/os732_index.html ...and on that page... Guidelines for OpenVMS Cluster Configurations http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/732FINAL/6318/6318PRO.HTML OpenVMS Cluster Systems http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/731FINAL/4477/4477PRO.HTML -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:59:31 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Fault-tolerant VMS Message-ID: <28adndddVsRe8mjcRVn-ow@igs.net> There was a post back in October about a FT810 VAX along with the following comment, "The system runs OpenVMS with a small optional package to make the fault tolerant hardware work. Once that is installed, all software that runs on it is fault tolerant, completely. No funny link libraries or special software packages to build into your code." Now that VMS 8.2 is formally released and that IA64/NSK hardware is scheduled for release later this year, is there any reason why (aside from politics) that the old Fault-Tolerant Software Services for VMS couldn't be dusted off? It would seem to me that given HP's focusing on the top global users of VMS - Gorham's 660 accounts - that many of them could probably use and would like to use FTSS on shiny new FT-Itanics if they could get their hands on them for VMS. I'm certain that 'lesser' customers could also use the functionality of FT-VMS and clusters for their $500MM businesses too - right along side all those nice spiffy Unix portability initiatives. You never know what kind of demand could be generated, especially if VMS were advertised. http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Digital/timeline/1990-1.htm Digital Technical Journal Vol. 3 No. 1 Winter 1991 http://research.compaq.com/wrl/DECarchives/DTJ/DTJ100/tp-introduction.txt http://research.compaq.com/wrl/DECarchives/DTJ/DTJ108/DTJ108SC.TXT ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 23:36:22 GMT From: "Colin Butcher" Subject: Re: Fault-tolerant VMS Message-ID: The VAXFT was special hardware (completely duplicated CPU, memory, IO controllers, discs etc. all running in lockstep, neatly split into two zones with separate power, UPS etc.) capable of surviving unplanned hardware failure. VMS ran on it quite happily without noticing the underlying hardware. The VAXFTSS additional software allowed an application to be aware of additional functionality and thus be able to do something about partial hardware failure that didn't take the box out, but where the failure had reduced it from full duplication to something nearer normal. One very hairy trick was upgrading the OS - you could split the hardware zones (thus losing hardware level redundancy), then cluster them, then do a rolling upgrade, then stitch it back together as a single machine afterwards. I know at least one such box still running with scorch marks up the back where part of it caught fire - and it never stopped working due to the built-in UPS, even when the entire room around it had been powered down. Doing that trick with an Integrity server would require a completely new hardware platform design to deliver hardware level fully redundant FT capability. That's what the non-stop range pretty much does, just runs a different OS that is transaction oriented. There are other ways of solving this type of problem. I sometimes use small machines, each dedicated (in at least pairs) to a specific function, all keeping each other up to date with which machine is in charge of what function. Best result so far is just over 16 years without loss of service, including complete hardware replacement (several times), OS upgrades, application changes, etc. etc. As for advertising VMS' capability in this area - why don't you write something and get it published? I'm sure that Ken Farmer et al would be happy to do so. -- Hope this helps, Colin. colin DOT butcher AT xdelta DOT co DOT uk Systems Archaeologist - Investigation & troubleshooting of older systems and networks. "John Smith" wrote in message news:28adndddVsRe8mjcRVn-ow@igs.net... > There was a post back in October about a FT810 VAX along with the following > comment, > > "The system runs OpenVMS with a small optional package to make the fault > tolerant hardware work. Once that is installed, all software that runs on it > is fault tolerant, completely. No funny link libraries or special software > packages to build into your code." > > > Now that VMS 8.2 is formally released and that IA64/NSK hardware is > scheduled for release later this year, is there any reason why (aside from > politics) that the old Fault-Tolerant Software Services for VMS couldn't be > dusted off? > > It would seem to me that given HP's focusing on the top global users of > VMS - Gorham's 660 accounts - that many of them could probably use and would > like to use FTSS on shiny new FT-Itanics if they could get their hands on > them for VMS. > > I'm certain that 'lesser' customers could also use the functionality of > FT-VMS and clusters for their $500MM businesses too - right along side all > those nice spiffy Unix portability initiatives. > > You never know what kind of demand could be generated, especially if VMS > were advertised. > > http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Digital/timeline/1990-1.htm > > Digital Technical Journal Vol. 3 No. 1 Winter 1991 > http://research.compaq.com/wrl/DECarchives/DTJ/DTJ100/tp-introduction.txt > http://research.compaq.com/wrl/DECarchives/DTJ/DTJ108/DTJ108SC.TXT > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 19:12:39 -0600 From: "Tom M" Subject: Re: Fault-tolerant VMS Message-ID: "John Smith" wrote in message news:28adndddVsRe8mjcRVn-ow@igs.net... > There was a post back in October about a FT810 VAX along with the following > comment, > > "The system runs OpenVMS with a small optional package to make the fault > tolerant hardware work. Once that is installed, all software that runs on it > is fault tolerant, completely. No funny link libraries or special software > packages to build into your code." > > > Now that VMS 8.2 is formally released and that IA64/NSK hardware is > scheduled for release later this year, is there any reason why (aside from > politics) that the old Fault-Tolerant Software Services for VMS couldn't be > dusted off? > The NSK hardware may not be appropriate. See http://www.realworldtech.com/forums/index.cfm?action=detail&PostNum=3044&Thread=113&entryID=45371&roomID=11 This uses loosely-coupled duplex or triplex MPUs, with separate memories, voting only at bus-synchronized I/O events. This works for our message-based OS and transaction workloads, but it won't generalize to Unix etc. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:03:34 +0800 From: prep@prep.synonet.com Subject: HP to be SAPed again? Message-ID: <87ekgaxla1.fsf@prep.synonet.com> From the register. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/24/hp_pc_hell/ -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 23:14:50 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: HP to be SAPed again? Message-ID: <2e-dnfQHktYgWmjcRVn-vw@igs.net> prep@prep.synonet.com wrote: > From the register. > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/24/hp_pc_hell/ "Now, one source has revealed that HP will likely have to take another charge - on the order of tens of millions - when it reports first quarter earnings. The charge will cover lost inventory - HP simply has no idea where some of its server hardware went." ... "Some of these problems stem directly from the top - CEO Carly Fiorina - said the same source. "Carly is very, very aggressive in how she sets her goals, and she doesn't like to hear 'no'. I think people try to tell her about the problems, but you don't get anywhere. That kind of percolates its way down to the rest of the company and is sort of a disease." " ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 23:51:26 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: HP to be SAPed again? Message-ID: <41F5D044.28EB036F@teksavvy.com> prep@prep.synonet.com wrote: > > From the register. > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/24/hp_pc_hell/ I can't understand how a company such as HP was unable to take an enterprise server order and transmit this to the shop to have the unit(s) assembled as ordered. Digital was able to do that back in the 1980s , wasn't it ? How come HP waited so long to implement software that could do that ? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 04:49:43 GMT From: CJT Subject: Re: HP to be SAPed again? Message-ID: <41F5CFE8.8080804@prodigy.net> JF Mezei wrote: > prep@prep.synonet.com wrote: > >>From the register. >> >>http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/24/hp_pc_hell/ > > > I can't understand how a company such as HP was unable to take an > enterprise server order and transmit this to the shop to have the > unit(s) assembled as ordered. Digital was able to do that back in the > 1980s , wasn't it ? > > How come HP waited so long to implement software that could do that ? How can they be credible selling such services to others? -- The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 03:38:57 +0800 From: prep@prep.synonet.com Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Message-ID: <87sm4qy5v2.fsf@prep.synonet.com> Dave Froble writes: > I seem to remember reading a report of the research into a > many-processor concept that carried the 'EV10' label. The little > I've seen about 'project Z' also mentions many cores, if I remember > correctly. Interesting tidbits to possibly tie together. EV10 was being work on at Barcellona, it was an EV8 core plus 16 vector pipes all hooked up to a crosspoint switching connect and big caches. Aka, Tarantula. HUGE performance. The MPU unit was the EV9. Lots of pretty dumb low power units with an interconect. Interesting contrast to `traditional' take no prisoners, lock up you power supply Alpha outlook! -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 2005 00:55:14 -0000 From: mrtravel is a piece of shit Subject: Re: mrtravel's next cruise - to Divorce Court.. Message-ID: Gregory Morrow wrote: > >mrtravel is a piece of shit wrote: > >> Checked you bed lately? There might be another man there trying to >> satisfy your wife while you're here 24 hours a day trolling and >> harassing posters. > > >Yeah, maybe JF...lol. But he is awfully busy hisself trolling newsgroups... > >Perhaps JF and Mr Travel could hook up! Yeah, they'd be perfect for each other. Just imagine, the two of them sitting side by side, pounding furiously on their keyboards, cranking out those troll posts 24/7 in JF's maman's basement. Troll heaven. Plus, mrtravel is circumcised, he said so right here a few years back, so JF doesn't have to worry about that pesky foreskin getting in the way of their lovemaking. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 2005 15:29:56 -0800 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Message-ID: <1106609396.804582.73470@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Dave Froble wrote: > AEF wrote: > > > Bill Todd wrote: [... lots snipped ...] > You're feeding Bill. He thrives on such. He's also mainly right in this > discussion. Quite feeding him, and save some storage on Google. You're right about my feeding Bill. Responding to his posts is a complete waste of time. I still disagree with some of what he says. I think it is ridiculous that reducing the VMS base will save it. I think just the opposite would happen. It would only give HP an excuse to kill it sooner. It may well be that there is nothing we can do to get HP to promote VMS. Still, VMS got better billing in the Web Event than any other HP OS and I think that is a good thing. OTOH: Isn't hp committed to support VMS for the U.S. gov't for at least the next 15 years or so? Won't that prevent VMS from being outright killed during that period? Just asking. And our argument over JF claiming Ann saying that hp is not interested in selling more VMS had degenerated into a failure to communicate. I even said that valid criticism is okay. It is the insults and the hostility that I think are foolish. But that's what he is. Can you really believe that Bill's slash and burn strategy will ever get hp to promote VMS? We should not put ourselves in hp's position, but instead imagine that we WERE them. It's not the same thing. And then formulate a strategy that we think might work based on that. I think he is mostly obsessed with punishing the execs that he acuses of doing great evils, regardless of the consequences. He'd blow up the planet if he could just to punish them. Ok, I exaggerate. I will quit feeding him, and even better, I will quit reading his posts, as they are not worth reading. It's just the same krap over and over. Google can take care of itself. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 2005 15:35:13 -0800 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Message-ID: <1106609713.129056.57490@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> JF Mezei wrote: > One more thing: > > Compaq successded in pulling quite a stunt on the customer base with teh > murder of Alpha. We were all suspicious of Palmer's true intentions. We > had hoped Compaq would be nice to VMS and Alpha. > > A strong message must be sent to management that VMS customers do not > tolerate being played with and require a vendor they can trust. Fine. I have no objection to this. > The one reason VMS was not killed in the 2000 timeframe was that > Marcello was able to point to some massive discontent from VMS customers > who would make sure they didn't buy any Compaq gear ever again should > Compaq go ahead with its plans to kill VMS. What about the commitment to the U.S. Govt for 15 years? > Despite this, Compaq went ahead with the murder of Alpha, and > indicatiosn are that it resulted in dismal performance of VMS since then. > > It is in every remaining VMS customer's interest to make damned sure > that HP know that what it is doing isn't enough to give vMS some > credibility and stamina in the marketplace and undo the damage from the > Alphacide. It is in every VMS customer's interest to ensure that HP is > told in no uncertain terms that HP cannot count on VSM customers > migrating to HP gear/software from VMS if VMS is not treated properly. Fine. I never said otherwise. > As long as VMS customers act like quiet blind sheep, HP will continue to > think that they do not need to marklet VMS and blow some life back into > it since they think that they can rescue a sufficient percentage of VMS > customers and move them to windows or hp-ux. I think there's more to it than that. Maybe a lot more. I still objects to insults and hostility and putting the worst possible interpretation on someone's words. Interpreting what HP thinks and what Ann said are not the same thing. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 2005 15:56:09 -0800 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Message-ID: <1106610969.016987.71110@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> John Smith wrote: > AEF wrote: > > > > If you were hp and you read JF's comments, how would you react? > > > Semi-sarcastically: > "Let's kill OpenVMS just because JF is pissed at HP.", because I'm positive > that is exactly how senior executives at every company react to criticism - > like petulant twerps. > > > I think that even the most ardent HP appologists here also think that there > is a severe problem with how HP does not advertise and market VMS. Why? > Because most of us here depend on using VMS to make our living. > > Ah ha you say...so why slag HP's [non] advertising/marketing of VMS? > > Because not all of us work for organizations where VMS use is so embedded > that its unthinkable that VMS would be tossed prior to our retirement. That > some of us ISV's and consultants need to have a large, growing, diverse > installed base of VMS-using organizations as customers; that not all of us > are eligible to even talk to organizations where 'top secret' clearance is > required - much less sell them anything or work as consultants for them > (which further narrows the 'active' customer base); that despite our vast > knowledge and experience many of us would be painted as 'untrainable' or > 'fossils' when looking for other work if VMS were to disappear from our > employers; and probably 28 other reasons too. > > I don't know about you but I only have so many hours in each day for > working, and I like to make progress in each of those hours. I find that I > make better progress by-and-large when my apps are running on VMS or when > the consulting work we do is for customers who use VMS. It makes us look > like a better value proposition. > > The ecosystem that springs up around any product eveolves a certain cachet - > if you are an aftermarket auto parts manufacturer and you make a high > quality part but only for Yugo's, the perception of your company will be > different than if your company made parts only for BMW's. This is a > symbiotic thing - both the car manufacturer and the aftermarket parts > manufacturer benefit. Each time the car manufacturer advertises and each tim > e the parts manufacturer advertises/sets up a booth at a trade show, etc... > the marketing rubs off on one another. > > With HP and VMS it's all a one way street - the ISV's who are shouldering > all the burden. > > > >And you can't say VMS was not given > >good visibility in the chat. In fact, it had top billing, aside >from > the Integrity servers themselves, of course > > Of course VMS had good visibility in the chat - a crowd of VMS people, > probably mostly participants in c.o.v. dominated the chats. If you had read > Livermore's scripted presentation transcript (see below) you would not have > seen VMS mentioned once. So unless you participated in the chat - which most > customer executives who tuned into the webcast would *not* have done, all > you'd have heard from Ann was HP-UX this and Itanic. I admitted that Ann said nothing about VMS. But she said nothing about any other OS either. And while people got stuck in the Carly loop, if some of them would have clicked the New Products link (and that was the one I thought would be of most interest mostly out of curiosity, not with any realistic hopes of seeing much VMS), then they would have seen VMS get top billing among all of HP's OSes. Somehow I think that's a good thing. Not the best possible thing, but still good. Trust me, I really want VMS to succeed in the OS marketplace. I have no problem with criticism of hp's lack of promotion of VMS. What I object to is the insults and the hostility. I can't believe they would do any good. I object to people putting everything that happens re VMS and hp in the absolute worst possible light. Just how bad are things for those who got "snookered" into buying Alphas. Are they really in big, big trouble? I agree it was a bad thing for HP to have stopped growing Alphas. But it is not the end of the world for those who have Alphas. They can keep running the Alphas. They can buy Integritys. OK, they're not the ideal that should have happened. OK, maybe they're not as fast as HP claims it is. But don't they still benefit greatly simply by still being on VMS instead of some inferior OS? Saying no would be saying that VMS isn't that much better than the others. Are you going to tell me that Alpha users would be better off switching to another OS? You want hp to promote VMS yet Bill, at least, wants to warn people to stay away, hoping for some polly anna thing to fall from the sky and save the day. You have to be realistic. And isn't that contradictory? Wanting hp to promote VMS while warning against the dire danger of buying it? But it's not the end of the world. Bad, yes, but not the end. VMS is still here, despite endless dire warnings for well over maybe 10 (or is it 15) years now. Hopefully that 10-15% growth that was mentioned I think by Marcello actually reflects some real growth -- I don't know -- it is easy to play games with numbers, especially when your statement is as vague as Marcello's was. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 21:09:16 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Message-ID: <41F5AA4B.944CD0CD@vaxination.ca> AEF wrote: > OTOH: Isn't hp committed to support VMS for the U.S. gov't for at least > the next 15 years or so? Won't that prevent VMS from being outright > killed during that period? Just asking. Nop. Compaq committed to support whatever version of VMS and hardware had been selected by the customer who was willing to pay extra for a garantee that the stuff will be maintainable for 15 years. It makes no commitment to continue to develop VMS or to continue to develop hardware. Proof: Compq went ahead and cancelled Alpha, and Compaq seriously considered cancelling VMS. Think of this as an extended warrantee contract, whereas the standard garantee is 5 years after a product is discontinued, this agreement extends support for 15 years. > And our argument over JF claiming Ann saying that hp is not interested > in selling more VMS had degenerated into a failure to communicate. The failure to communicate is on HP's part. HP is either incompetant, or they are purposefully avoiding communications with VMS. Since HP is quite competant at propagating its "Adaptive Enterprise" thing, so I know that when they want to communicate something, they are perfectly able to do so at every opprtunity they get. > Can you really believe that Bill's slash and burn strategy will ever > get hp to promote VMS? This of it as building barriers to prevent the fire from spreading to the core of the forest. Digital, Compaq and now HP have taken VMS for granted, using the profits it generates to pay for development/advertising of new platforms, at the expense of VMS. If there was any slash and burn, it was the owner of VMS cannabalising VMS for its money and technologies. >We should not put ourselves in hp's position, > but instead imagine that we WERE them. Maximize the potential of your own products which are more profitable than other people's products. Do you see HP building Printers that use EPSON cartridges ? The printer division is very profitable. Do you see HP building 8086 boxes that run Microsoft's product ? Yes, and that division is not very profitahle (or loses money). HP needs to focus on its own products and stop sacrificing its own profits to help intel and microsoft. HP needs to learn that the wintel industry is not a religion. It is a stupid commodity industry that will be taken over by the chinese and japanese etc. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 2005 18:10:43 -0800 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Message-ID: <1106619043.681411.131860@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Dave Froble wrote: > AEF wrote: > > > > I still disagree with some of what he says. I think it is ridiculous > > that reducing the VMS base will save it. I think just the opposite > > would happen. It would only give HP an excuse to kill it sooner. It may > > well be that there is nothing we can do to get HP to promote VMS. > > Still, VMS got better billing in the Web Event than any other HP OS and > > I think that is a good thing. > > > It's good, if it's a beginning. > > > > OTOH: Isn't hp committed to support VMS for the U.S. gov't for at least > > the next 15 years or so? Won't that prevent VMS from being outright > > killed during that period? Just asking. > > > Don't bet on that. What does the agreement say. Possibly they could keep one > support person on staff, but stop working on VMS, get rid of the engineers, and > stop selling the OS. I don't know just what the government commitment means, > and really, what does DEC's commitment to the government mean, when they're out > of business? What's the goverment going to do? Stop buying any more systems > might be their only option. Don't know. OK. That's why I asked. The devil's in the details on this one. > > Can you really believe that Bill's slash and burn strategy will ever > > get hp to promote VMS? We should not put ourselves in hp's position, > > but instead imagine that we WERE them. It's not the same thing. And > > then formulate a strategy that we think might work based on that. > > > Bill's upset more about the demise of really good technology (Alpha) than any > concerns about VMS. For that matter, I agree with him. Give a beancounter > enough room, and he just may be able to show how he'd squeeze a bit more for the > current quarter if we all went back to the caves. Better to shove all the > beancounters into the cave, toss in a nuke with a short fuse, and seal it up. Well, I care more about VMS than Alpha. And I don't see how his strategy is going to save Alpha anyway. Additionally, I suspect he might not even care about VMS at all. I think he must be angry about something else. A drop of honey gathers more flies than a gallon of gall. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 2005 18:26:13 -0800 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Message-ID: <1106619973.423161.198390@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Dave Froble wrote: > AEF wrote: > > > > Just how bad are things for those who got "snookered" into buying > > Alphas. Are they really in big, big trouble? I agree it was a bad thing > > for HP to have stopped growing Alphas. But it is not the end of the > > world for those who have Alphas. They can keep running the Alphas. They > > can buy Integritys. OK, they're not the ideal that should have > > happened. OK, maybe they're not as fast as HP claims it is. But don't > > they still benefit greatly simply by still being on VMS instead of some > > inferior OS? Saying no would be saying that VMS isn't that much better > > than the others. Are you going to tell me that Alpha users would be > > better off switching to another OS? You want hp to promote VMS yet > > Bill, at least, wants to warn people to stay away, hoping for some > > polly anna thing to fall from the sky and save the day. You have to be > > realistic. And isn't that contradictory? Wanting hp to promote VMS > > while warning against the dire danger of buying it? > > > There is not black and white. People are all over the spectrum on these issues. > > As for Alpha. That decision was as bad as could be. The people making it > basically were telling customers (except I doubt they considered customers) "Up > yours, we don't care about your concerns, we're going to do whatever we want to > do, and we don't care what it does to you." OK. That is very bad. > You may ask why. The main reason was the costs they would force customers to > incur. For many the cost may not be such a big thing. Re-compile, link, and > go. Great. But what about customers that may have to perform extensive > conformance testing of their entire environment. The cost of doing this in some > cases could be in the millions of dollars. (You maybe want a glitch in the yea > or ney on the firing off of a salvo of missles with nuclear warheads?) Not > saying that example is of concern, but it certainly demonstrates that some > environments do require extensive and expensive validation testing. Think about > being in a hospital Intensive Care Unit, and the computer system that's helping > keep you alive. Other issues can arise, such as code that does not work on the > itanic without some amount of re-working. And validation. OK. > There are additional reasons why the decision was bad. Lying to customers ranks > high on the list. But enough about the Alpha decision. My feeling is that the I've never seen, heard, or read any good advice about how to deal with those who lie. > longer Alphas are produced and sold, the better off we all are. I'm all for more Alphas. > As for the rest. Time will tell what Intel will do with the itanic. It could > still be what they originaly wanted it to be, a good commodity CPU used by many. > Their track record to date isn't very good. Add to that the AMD threat, and > the itanic just might not be important to Intel. At least with Alpha the owners > of VMS had control of whether CPUs that run VMS would be available. > > Me, I hope it works out. I don't want to endure the alternative. Thanks for the explanations. But this is odd. Warning people away from VMS because of all this reminds me of cutting off your nose to spite your face (or whatever the expression is). I mean, suppose HP does start promoting VMS. Do we then forget the Alphacide and let people buy it? Do we continue to warn them not to buy it? If hp *does* start promoting VMS, will cov readers cheer or just write negative things claiming it's just another trick by hp to be followed by another Alphacide-type event? Of course some will do one and some the other. If hp makes commitments won't they be blasted as lies by Bill and others in the group? How can any of this lead to something positive? Will a change in leadership really satisfy the naysayers? Leadership has changed at least twice now and still there is no fully-proactive marketing of VMS. Will a new CEO really help? If the new CEO does appear helpful to VMS at first, will the naysayers shut up and wait and see? Just exactly what is the Alpha situation? Is hp legally bound by contract with Intel to not make any more Alphas should they change their mind? What about Samsung making Alphas? Can we encourage them to do so? thanks for your answers ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 22:27:28 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Message-ID: <41F5BC9B.A4B15551@teksavvy.com> AEF wrote: > Well, I care more about VMS than Alpha. And I don't see how his > strategy is going to save Alpha anyway. Additionally, I suspect he > might not even care about VMS at all. Vendor makes two promises. They brag about how Alpha is superior and how IA64 is a bloated failed project that will never reach Alpha's potential. Then, all of a suffen, they decide Alpha is to be killed and IA64 is going to be the best chip around and that IA64 would have caught up with LApha very quickly. Since one doesn't make such a decision overnight, this means that Compaq, as a corporation, was lying to customers. They outright lied to the Quebec government who had placed a huge order for Tru64 Alphas to replace IBM mainframes just months before the Alphacide. The low level employees may not have known that Alpha was already scheduled to be killed, but as a Corporation, Compaq already had the plans in the works. Compaq promised Alpha was safe. It killed Alpha. Compaq promised VMS was safe. It seriously considered killing it. HP promises to continue the same policies on VMS/Alpha as Compaq had done. HP even killed EV79. And you expect me to have faith that HP still cares about VMS even though it doesn't bother including VMS as a core strategic product in its marketing, even though it hasn't integrated VMS's niche applciations into its web site (vertical industries sections such as telecom, medical etc) Trust is earned. HP should be fully aware that customers have been screwed over and over again and don't have much trust. HP could have taken simple steps on may 7th 2002 to start to build trust, but they instead released Stallard's memo, which was later edited without mention to reduce the negative impact of HP's statement. The launch of VMS on IA64 wa the perfect opportunity for hP to send a strong signal that this was more than just another version of VMS, that it meant that VMS was going to be seriously promoted from now on and that it was "under new management" with HP having taken full ownership of the product and having all intentions to fully leverage its potential and gicve it back some of the enterprise visibility and gowth it is capable of. When you launch a new product, (which for HP, VMS is a new product), you don't start by stating that it is hard to gain new customers and are happy with a small installed base). You should start by sating your would allow VMS to agressively pursue any and all possible markets and foster its growth. (even if internally you think growth of a proprietary OS is limited, you never ever say this publically). ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 2005 19:36:22 -0800 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Message-ID: <1106624182.250246.29300@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> JF Mezei wrote: > AEF wrote: > > Well, I care more about VMS than Alpha. And I don't see how his > > strategy is going to save Alpha anyway. Additionally, I suspect he > > might not even care about VMS at all. > > Vendor makes two promises. They brag about how Alpha is superior and how > IA64 is a bloated failed project that will never reach Alpha's > potential. Then, all of a suffen, they decide Alpha is to be killed and > IA64 is going to be the best chip around and that IA64 would have caught > up with LApha very quickly. > > Since one doesn't make such a decision overnight, this means that > Compaq, as a corporation, was lying to customers. They outright lied to > the Quebec government who had placed a huge order for Tru64 Alphas to > replace IBM mainframes just months before the Alphacide. The low level > employees may not have known that Alpha was already scheduled to be > killed, but as a Corporation, Compaq already had the plans in the works. > > Compaq promised Alpha was safe. It killed Alpha. > Compaq promised VMS was safe. It seriously considered killing it. > HP promises to continue the same policies on VMS/Alpha as Compaq had > done. HP even killed EV79. > > And you expect me to have faith that HP still cares about VMS even > though it doesn't bother including VMS as a core strategic product in > its marketing, even though it hasn't integrated VMS's niche applciations > into its web site (vertical industries sections such as telecom, medical etc) No, and I never said I so. > Trust is earned. HP should be fully aware that customers have been > screwed over and over again and don't have much trust. HP could have > taken simple steps on may 7th 2002 to start to build trust, but they > instead released Stallard's memo, which was later edited without mention > to reduce the negative impact of HP's statement. > > The launch of VMS on IA64 wa the perfect opportunity for hP to send a > strong signal that this was more than just another version of VMS, that > it meant that VMS was going to be seriously promoted from now on and > that it was "under new management" with HP having taken full ownership > of the product and having all intentions to fully leverage its potential > and gicve it back some of the enterprise visibility and gowth it is > capable of. OK. > When you launch a new product, (which for HP, VMS is a new product), you > don't start by stating that it is hard to gain new customers and are OK, it's not the best thing to say, but I don't think it's quite as bad as you do. We differ on this. OK. > happy with a small installed base). You should start by sating your Here I still disagree. She did not say that. I guess we'll continue to disagree on this point. She said most sales were to existing VMS customers so that implies that some sales were to new customers. And just what made these new customers purchase VMS? > would allow VMS to agressively pursue any and all possible markets and > foster its growth. (even if internally you think growth of a proprietary > OS is limited, you never ever say this publically). Yes, that would be the ideal. But even then I bet we would still hear complaints about it. I never said "Relax, VMS is safe." I just said the Web event wasn't as bad as you and others made it out to be. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 22:56:00 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Message-ID: <41F5C349.B0D1F132@teksavvy.com> AEF wrote: > your face (or whatever the expression is). I mean, suppose HP does > start promoting VMS. Do we then forget the Alphacide and let people buy > it? Do we continue to warn them not to buy it? It isn't a question of warning people not to buy VMS. It is a question of warning people that HP can't be trusted. There is quite a difference. In terms of "what if HP starts to market VMS ?", ther is a simple answer to this: Ever since Palmer days, the cycle has been simple: let VMS slide into oblivion until complaints from customers/cov rose to a certain loudness, at which point, you do a token piece of marketing to stop the complaints, and later revert to the previous policy of actively not mentioning VMS, until the cycle begins again. This has happened often enough that a single piece such as last week's so called "web event" can't be viewed as a sign that HP is really changing the way it is handling VMS from now on. Only time will tell if there is to be a real and permanent change in HP attitudes on VMS. HP used to have the excuse that they didn't want to grow VMS on Alpha since Alpha was dead. They no longer have any excuses NOT to market VMS now that it runs on that IA64 thing. Go back to 2000 during the short lived renaissance, and you'll find plenty of positive posts about the stuff Marcello was doing for VMS, including PUBLIC POSTERS in bus stops in a european country (can't remember which). But alas, even this didn't l;ast more than a few months and then witherede away, and it took a while before people realised that VMS was back to "no markleting allowed" mode in Compaq. Shortly after, Alpha was being killed. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 2005 20:00:11 -0800 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Message-ID: <1106625611.710038.213090@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> JF Mezei wrote: > AEF wrote: > > OTOH: Isn't hp committed to support VMS for the U.S. gov't for at least > > the next 15 years or so? Won't that prevent VMS from being outright > > killed during that period? Just asking. > > Nop. Compaq committed to support whatever version of VMS and hardware > had been selected by the customer who was willing to pay extra for a > garantee that the stuff will be maintainable for 15 years. It makes no > commitment to continue to develop VMS or to continue to develop > hardware. Proof: Compq went ahead and cancelled Alpha, and Compaq > seriously considered cancelling VMS. > > Think of this as an extended warrantee contract, whereas the standard > garantee is 5 years after a product is discontinued, this agreement > extends support for 15 years. OK. Thanks for the info! > > And our argument over JF claiming Ann saying that hp is not interested > > in selling more VMS had degenerated into a failure to communicate. > > The failure to communicate is on HP's part. HP is either incompetant, > or they are purposefully avoiding communications with VMS. > > Since HP is quite competant at propagating its "Adaptive Enterprise" > thing, so I know that when they want to communicate something, they are > perfectly able to do so at every opprtunity they get. > > > Can you really believe that Bill's slash and burn strategy will ever > > get hp to promote VMS? > > This of it as building barriers to prevent the fire from spreading to > the core of the forest. Digital, Compaq and now HP have taken VMS for > granted, using the profits it generates to pay for > development/advertising of new platforms, at the expense of VMS. > > If there was any slash and burn, it was the owner of VMS cannabalising > VMS for its money and technologies. > > >We should not put ourselves in hp's position, > > but instead imagine that we WERE them. > > Maximize the potential of your own products which are more profitable > than other people's products. That's oversimplfying it. Don't forget the difference I mentioned. Example: A chemist wrote reports to a vice president including unnecessary details oh his research. the VP was not interested in these details. The chemist said, "But I was just putting myself in the VP's place. If I were him, I would want all those details". But when it was suggested to the chemist to "Forget yourself and *become* your reader". Then the chemist said, "Well, if I were the VP without any scientific training and interested only in results and using them for company decisions, why then I have to cut out these details. But that's not putting myself in the reader's place." Do you see the difference? If you or I were in Carly's place, we would of course begin immediate promotion of VMS and if possible, resurrect the Alpha line, and do whatever is possible to make up for the Alphacide of 2001. But you have to work with the execs you have, not the ones you would like to have! :-) Not that any of this will be easy! And even if Carly is replaced, what are the odds that someone more receptive to our cause will replace her? Could get better or could get worse. The Web event could have been much worse. They could have avoided any mention of VMS at all. At least they didn't do that! > Do you see HP building Printers that use EPSON cartridges ? The printer > division is very profitable. No. But I haven't kept up with printers. > Do you see HP building 8086 boxes that run Microsoft's product ? Yes, > and that division is not very profitahle (or loses money). > > HP needs to focus on its own products and stop sacrificing its own > profits to help intel and microsoft. > > HP needs to learn that the wintel industry is not a religion. It is a > stupid commodity industry that will be taken over by the chinese and > japanese etc. I don't think insults will achieve this very worthy goal. Rockefeller was the most hated man in America and one of his companies's employees went on strike. There was violence. Bullets were fired. How did it end? Rockefeller went to many of the strikers' homes and talked with them, letting them express their concerns. Then he gave a moving speech to the workers and won them over. Not that such a task is easy. But there are many stories like this. Look at how much greater success you and Dave Froble are having discussing with me than Mr. Todd! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:09:25 -0500 From: "warren sander" Subject: Re: OpenVMS 8.2 Docs on web page? Message-ID: <41f572cf$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com> The 82 docs are being worked. I expect this week or next week. as has been said the 82 ft docs are out there and i've heard not a whole lot is changing. yes there will be more docs. some like c, c++ are out already on the c and c++ areas. "Ryan Moore" wrote in message news:Pine.LNX.4.61.0501220041100.15550@jaipur.local... > Now that 8.2 has been 'officially' released, any chance the 8.2 docs will > be posted to the web page? We haven't received our doc updates yet and I > would like to see the final release notes and new features manuals at > least. > > Thanks. > > -Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 06:51:33 +0000 (UTC) From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: OpenVMS 8.2 Docs on web page? Message-ID: Hi, >some like c, c++ are out already on > the > c and c++ areas. No there's a surprise :-( Two-speed VMS anyone? We get treated like Oracle treats VMS. Regards Richard Maher "warren sander" wrote in message news:41f572cf$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com... > The 82 docs are being worked. I expect this week or next week. > > as has been said the 82 ft docs are out there and i've heard not a whole lot > is > changing. yes there will be more docs. some like c, c++ are out already on > the > c and c++ areas. > > > "Ryan Moore" wrote in message > news:Pine.LNX.4.61.0501220041100.15550@jaipur.local... > > Now that 8.2 has been 'officially' released, any chance the 8.2 docs will > > be posted to the web page? We haven't received our doc updates yet and I > > would like to see the final release notes and new features manuals at > > least. > > > > Thanks. > > > > -Ryan > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:30:37 -0500 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: RFA string format Message-ID: John Laird wrote: ... > Having long-word VBNs is (aiui) the primary restriction on file size (4 > billion blocks = 2 terabytes), and changing that would be a huge task, > especially if some backwards compatibility would be maintained. There seems > little point updating the RFA first. The point of updating the RFA would have been to do so at the same time the rest of the RMS interface was extended to 64 bits, rather than as a potentially additionally-disruptive add-on later (assuming there actually is a 'later'). RMS was designed at a time when 2 TB files were unimaginably large, but it supported them and that support eventually became first useful and finally now a bit confining (compared with other more modern file systems). Looking similarly ahead when the rest of the interface was extended to 64 bits would have been wise, since everything else (at least that below RMS) could then have been handled beneath the covers if/when it became necessary to do so. It might be easier to have a new ODS > for enormous files. While on-disk structure changes are pretty much required (unless you want to handle the whole thing in RAID software that cobbles multiple 2 TB entities together in an array like a linear volume set which can externally be addressed as something larger), perhaps you were referring to the software between RMS and the driver level. I find it a bit difficult to believe that extending that existing software to address larger devices in a reasonably backward-compatible manner (e.g., at the QIO interface) would be anything like as difficult as creating new software from scratch which still would need the same kind of backward compatibility to allow use of most of the necessary utility functions that operate on and cooperate with the existing file system, though don't doubt that it would take a fair amount of work. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:48:43 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: RFA string format Message-ID: <41F55117.BAE5BBA7@teksavvy.com> Jan van der Weijde wrote: > does anyone have experience with the way an OpenVMS RMS table Record > File Address (RFA) is represented as a string ? On ALLIN1, it is/was represented as something like %#17000000100 (12 digits, leading zeros NOT supressed) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:21:18 -0500 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: RFA string format Message-ID: <41F566CE.4010105@tsoft-inc.com> Jan van der Weijde wrote: > Hello, > > does anyone have experience with the way an OpenVMS RMS table Record > File Address (RFA) is represented as a string ? > Internally it is a three byte integer value. > On the internet I only found the string representation RFA(0001,0000,0000) > (e.g. output of dump/rec ). > Is this a format OpenVMS users are familiar with ? > > Thanks, > Jan > > > I've read this thread, and after all the responses, I'm still not sure what you're asking. As a simple 30 second excercise in BASIC, the following shows what's in a RFA. The RFA is a numeric value. Not sure what you're asking with respect to "STRING". Also note, as posted by others, it's a 6 byte structure, comprised of 3 unsigned words, not bytes. NONAME 24-JAN-2005 16:05 1 map (F) string Field1=16 map (A) RFA RFA_REC_NUM map (A) string RFA_STRING=6 map (A) word R1, R2, R3 open "Temp.tmp" for output as file 1%, relative, map F put #1% rfa_rec_num = getrfa(1%) print r1; r2; r3 put #1%, record "65537"L rfa_rec_num = getrfa(1%) print r1; r2; r3 close 1% kill "Temp.tmp" Ready run NONAME 24-JAN-2005 16:05 1 0 0 1 1 0 Ready As can be seen, the least significant word is in the first 2 bytes, with the most significant word in the last 2 bytes. Was this your question? Dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:57:57 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: RFA string format Message-ID: <41F56F5A.9FE02E5D@teksavvy.com> JF Mezei wrote: > On ALLIN1, it is/was represented as something like %#17000000100 (12 > digits, leading zeros NOT supressed) Additional note: the 12 digits are hexadecimal. So 6 bytes. I assume that whenever Allin1 sees a record key that begins with %# it assumes the string is an RFA and acesses the record thorugh RFA instead of keyed access. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:01:26 -0500 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: RFA string format Message-ID: Dave Froble wrote: ... > As can be seen, the least significant word is in the first 2 bytes, with > the most significant word in the last 2 bytes. Unless the definition of what an RFA is has changed from the original design, there are no 'most significant' or 'least significant' parts to it: it is an opaque 6-byte value which RMS provides to the application which the application can then return to RMS as a record identifier for the record in question (though in the case of indexed files only as long as the original file has not been reorganized, and in the case of sequential files only as long as the original file has not been truncated to a location preceding that record and then repopulated past the previous record's location; with relative files, any record in the same single-record 'slot' qualifies as a hit). - bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 23:27:56 +0000 From: John Laird Subject: Re: RFA string format Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:30:37 -0500, Bill Todd wrote: >The point of updating the RFA would have been to do so at the same time >the rest of the RMS interface was extended to 64 bits, rather than as a >potentially additionally-disruptive add-on later (assuming there >actually is a 'later'). I'm sure you probably know a lot more about this than I do, but the 64-bit changes were all related to locating user and RMS buffers in 64-bit space, and permitting large data transfers. While I can appreciate the logic in perhaps seizing the opportunity to look ahead to much larger disk volumes than prevailed at the time, I suspect the parallel need to also amend all VBNs to something >4 bytes would have resulted in changes being required all over VMS. You might also expect to have to consider record "numbers" outside 32-bit range as well, which would knock on into any utility that processed files as records. The 64-bit access changes only impacted on those apps that were modified to use them (although I seem to recall we found a bug in our build software resulting from some dodgy use of an RMS structure). Further to a related post, the 6 bytes represent, I believe, a little bit more than just a byte offset. I don't think the full 48 bits are therefore available for use. (I'd not be surprised if the RVN isn't in there, for example.) -- Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday. Mail john rather than nospam... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 00:25:49 +0000 From: John Laird Subject: Re: RFA string format Message-ID: On 24 Jan 2005 16:18:04 -0700, nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) wrote: >In article , > John Laird writes: > >> >> Further to a related post, the 6 bytes represent, I believe, a little bit >> more than just a byte offset. I don't think the full 48 bits are therefore >> available for use. (I'd not be surprised if the RVN isn't in there, for >> example.) >> > I don't understand why relative volume number would be part of the RMS >RFA. Relative volume number is a construct at the ODS-2 level. A guess might be locking, but I'll admit I didn't really think that through to see how sensible it might be. -- Secrecy at my job prevents me from knowing what I do. Mail john rather than nospam... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:40:45 -0500 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: RFA string format Message-ID: <41F5A39D.3030607@tsoft-inc.com> Bill Todd wrote: > Dave Froble wrote: > > ... > >> As can be seen, the least significant word is in the first 2 bytes, >> with the most significant word in the last 2 bytes. > > > Unless the definition of what an RFA is has changed from the original > design, there are no 'most significant' or 'least significant' parts to > it: it is an opaque 6-byte value which RMS provides to the application > which the application can then return to RMS as a record identifier for > the record in question (though in the case of indexed files only as long > as the original file has not been reorganized, and in the case of > sequential files only as long as the original file has not been > truncated to a location preceding that record and then repopulated past > the previous record's location; with relative files, any record in the > same single-record 'slot' qualifies as a hit). > > - bill I've used RFA very infrequently. I'd assumed that it was just a 48 bit unsigned integer. No real reason to do so. Is there a definition of the RFA available anywhere? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:43:13 -0500 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: RFA string format Message-ID: <41F5A431.6050208@tsoft-inc.com> Alan Frisbie wrote: > Bill Todd wrote: > >> Unless the definition of what an RFA is has changed from the original >> design, there are no 'most significant' or 'least significant' parts >> to it: it is an opaque 6-byte value which RMS provides to the >> application which the application can then return to RMS as a record >> identifier for the record in question (though in the case of indexed >> files only as long as the original file has not been reorganized, and >> in the case of sequential files only as long as the original file has >> not been truncated to a location preceding that record and then >> repopulated past the previous record's location; with relative files, >> any record in the same single-record 'slot' qualifies as a hit). > > > This applies to RMS-11, but I'm pretty sure it also applies to RMS-32. > While the RFA is never actually defined anywhere (that I could find), > it is fairly easy to deduce that: > > RFA Word 1 = 1st word of VBN of bucket holding RRV > RFA Word 2 = Record ID of RRV in bucket > RFA Word 3 = 2nd word of VBN of bucket holding RRV > > It is interesting to note that even using RFA access, RMS must > still search through the relevant bucket sequentially to find > the requested record. > > Alan > That deduction doesn't seem to fit with the simple example I posted. How RFAs are constructed for Indexed and variable length records very well could be different than for a relative file, where it just appears to be a record index. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:54:38 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: RFA string format Message-ID: <41F5A6DD.29D69A64@vaxination.ca> Question: For database systems such as Oracle or RDB, how do they access their data inside their database files ? Aren't those considered to be raw data container files by RMS ? Do these database applications make use of RFAs at all ? Or do they work only with raw byte offsets, or just relative block numbers inside a file ? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 21:10:33 -0500 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: RFA string format Message-ID: Malcolm Dunnett wrote: ... > In that case I don't understand all the fuss about 2TB file size limits. > > Using the "classic" implementation of an RFA ( where two words, or 32 > bits, are used for the "block number" of the record ) I can see the limit - > but if one simply treats it as an opaque 6 byte (48 bit) value then you can > represent any file offset up to 281,474,976,710,655 ( ie a file of over > 281TB if one uses the "decimal" definition of a TB ). Is that sufficient > for the immediate future? sure, adding the extra 2 bytes discussed earlier > could have comfortably pushed the theoretical limit into the petabyte > range, but let's not be greedy :-) > > If we've all truly treated it as an opaque value then no application > programs need be changed in order to change the way RMS internally uses > the RFA. Save for the small matter of applications which are using the existing format and expect new versions of RMS to honor it as long as the files involved haven't changed. There is in fact some maneuvering room - unless RMS-32 implemented the 16-bit RRV ID option they were considering a couple of decades ago (RRV IDs run out fairly quickly in index-file data buckets in heavy delete/reinsert situations, and requiring frequent file reorganizations has never been popular, leaving aside the fact that such reorganizations invalidate existing RFAs anyway). As you note, in sequential files 7 bits remain available (one of which would need to be used as a 'new format' flag to allow old-style RFAs to continue to be honored), in indexed files (at least if RRV IDs are still limited to 8 bits) 8 bits (minus the new-format flag) are available, and in relative files the entire 16 bits may be available (I vaguely remember that the relative-file RRV was just the 32-bit relative record number, though my memory could be playing tricks on me). Then again, the mention of the RVN rang a faint bell. It's possible that the 'extra' byte in the RFA was drafted because the interface had forgotten to include it elsewhere (you only needed 8 bits to specify offset-within-VBN for sequential files originally, since records were required to start on 16-bit boundaries - though whether that changed with the advent of additional stream file formats I can't recall), but this oversight may have been corrected before RMS-32 got out the door. From other responses here, it appears that I was incorrect in assuming that things like the VBN and LBN fields used in RMS's allocation XABs and block I/O mechanisms had been extended to 64 bits when VMS purportedly became a full-fledged 64-bit OS on Alpha, in which case there's no reason why the RFA field should have been extended by itself. But it does mean that VMS just has that much more work to do before it can address > 2 TB files (and devices), and the time isn't far off when that limitation will start to be a significant constraint (though the reckoning can be put off at least for a while by application-level kludges similar to those employed to support aggregate file sizes greater than 2 or 4 GB in other environments). - bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:01:14 +0000 From: David B Sneddon - bigpond Subject: Re: RFA string format Message-ID: <41F5A86A.4010205@bigpond.com> JF Mezei mentioned in passing: > Question: > > For database systems such as Oracle or RDB, how do they access their > data inside their database files ? Aren't those considered to be raw > data container files by RMS ? > > Do these database applications make use of RFAs at all ? Or do they work > only with raw byte offsets, or just relative block numbers inside a file ? > As far as I know, Oracle and RDB do not use RMS therefore they would not use RFAs. Regards, Dave -- David B Sneddon (dbs) VMS Systems Programmer dbsneddon@bigpond.com Sneddo's quick guide ... http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/ DBS freeware http://www.users.bigpond.com/dbsneddon/software.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 19:46:05 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: TCP/IP on OpenVMS 7.3 Message-ID: <41F5A4DD.9FB64475@comcast.net> Hunter Goatley wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > > > There seems to be a known problem this year with PSC's hobbyist PAK > > generator rejecting valid checksums. I did receive a valid Multinet PAK > > separately, however (many thanx to the one who intervened (Hunter?)). > > > > Actually, the problem is at Montagar. We send the VMS PAK checksums > to Montagar for verification, but David has had (and apparently is still > having) database problems that are causing the checksums to rejected. > I've been generating PAKs after-the-fact when there are problems. Thanx for your help! -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 2005 13:42:14 -0800 From: dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com Subject: TCPIP Services - Corrupted Files?? Message-ID: <1106602934.353373.156750@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> On one of my clusters (3 GS140's (A/S 8400's),(running OVMS 7.2-1, and TCPIP Services for OpenVMS Version 5.1, ECO4), I have a problem which looks like file corruption. When the a system boots and runs TCPIP$STARTUP, I get a Register Dump. When I look at TCPIP, everything looks OK except the NAME Service. "$ tcpip show name " shows all fields empty. however when I type "$ tcpip show config name", all the information is correct. My current response to this is to run TCPIP$CONFIG, Select Option 5 (shutdown TCPIP Services), followed by Option 6 (Startup TCPIP Services). After doing this, the Name Service show all fields correctly, except the Domain Paths, which I then enter manually. TCPIP is now OK. The problem with this is that I have to intervene manually every boot. I would like to correct the problem if possible. The only thing I can think of is to delete the TCPIP$CONFIGURATION file and reconfigure from scratch, however I really don't want to have to reconfigure EVERYTHING. I noticed that when TCPIP$CONFIG starts, it checks for configuration files. Question, If I delete TCPIP$CONFIGURATION.dat, will TCPIP$CONFIG recreate it from the running system?? Other than this, does anyone have any ideas about how I can resolve this problem. Dave. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:31:47 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: TCPIP Services - Corrupted Files?? Message-ID: <41F57746.E508BA8C@teksavvy.com> dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com wrote: > When the a system boots and runs TCPIP$STARTUP, I get a Register Dump. > When I look at TCPIP, everything looks OK except the NAME Service. > "$ tcpip show name " shows all fields empty. however when I type "$ > tcpip show config name", all the information is correct. What happens if you TCPIP SHOW HOST ? Are you able to TCPIP SET HOST chocolate/address=10.0.0.1 for instance ? At the TCPIP> prompt, have you tried SET NAME/ENABLE/SYSTEM ? You may wish to do a SET WATCH FILE/CLASS=DIR to find out which files it tries to access prior to bombing. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:15:22 -0800 From: JBloggs@acme.com Subject: Re: TCPIP Services - Corrupted Files?? Message-ID: On 24 Jan 2005 13:42:14 -0800, dave.baxter@bannerhealth.com wrote: >The only thing I can think of is to delete the TCPIP$CONFIGURATION file >and reconfigure from scratch, however I really don't want to have to >reconfigure EVERYTHING. Yuck. >I noticed that when TCPIP$CONFIG starts, it checks for configuration >files. Question, If I delete TCPIP$CONFIGURATION.dat, will >TCPIP$CONFIG recreate it from the running system?? in my experience, no. it would be nice, if this file was broken out into similar, but smaller files. >Other than this, does anyone have any ideas about how I can resolve >this problem. perhaps, right before you do the next shutdown, try the following (edit to taste). Some of the following lines will show errors; that's in part (or mostly/all) because my own understanding of when "TCPIP SET [config] NO" is needed (or allowed/disallowed) is somewhat muddled. $ Set NoON $! $ tcpip set comm /domain="Acme.Com" $ tcpip set config comm /domain="Acme.Com" $! $ tcpip set name_service /domain="Acme.Com" $ tcpip set name_service /domain="Acme.Com" /system $ tcpip set config name_service /domain="Acme.Com" $! $ tcpip set name_service /NOserver=* $ tcpip set name_service /NOserver=* /system $ tcpip set name_service /NOserver=NS1 $ tcpip set name_service /NOserver=NS1 /system $ tcpip set name_service /NOserver=NS2 $ tcpip set name_service /NOserver=NS2 /system $ tcpip set name_service /NOserver=192.168.10.1 $ tcpip set name_service /NOserver=192.168.10.1 /system $ tcpip set name_service /NOserver=192.168.10.2 $ tcpip set name_service /NOserver=192.168.10.2 /system $! $ tcpip set config name_service /NOserver=* $ tcpip set config name_service /NOserver=* /system $ tcpip set config name_service /NOserver=NS1 $ tcpip set config name_service /NOserver=NS1 /system $ tcpip set config name_service /NOserver=NS2 $ tcpip set config name_service /NOserver=NS2 /system $ tcpip set config name_service /NOserver=192.168.10.1 $ tcpip set config name_service /NOserver=192.168.10.1 /system $ tcpip set config name_service /NOserver=192.168.10.2 $ tcpip set config name_service /NOserver=192.168.10.2 /system $! $ tcpip set name_service /server=(127.0.0.1) $ tcpip set name_service /server=(NS1) $ tcpip set name_service /server=(NS2) $! $ tcpip set config name_service /server=(127.0.0.1) $ tcpip set config name_service /server=(NS1) $ tcpip set config name_service /server=(NS2) $! $ tcpip set name_service /server=(127.0.0.1) /system $ tcpip set name_service /server=(NS1) /system $ tcpip set name_service /server=(NS2) /system $! $ tcpip set config name_service /server=(127.0.0.1) /system $ tcpip set config name_service /server=(NS1) /system $ tcpip set config name_service /server=(NS2) /system $! $ tcpip set name_service /nopath=* $ tcpip set name_service /nopath=* /system $! $ tcpip set name_service /nopath=("Acme.Com") $ tcpip set name_service /nopath=("Acme.Com") /system $ tcpip set config name_service /nopath=("Acme.Com") $! $ tcpip set name_service /path=("Acme.Com") $ tcpip set name_service /path=("Acme.Com") /system $ tcpip set config name_service /path=("Acme.Com") $! ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2005.049 ************************