INFO-VAX Wed, 19 Jan 2005 Volume 2005 : Issue 37 Contents: Re: carly(tm) transcipt Re: carly(tm) transcipt Re: carly(tm) transcipt Re: carly(tm) transcipt Re: carly(tm) transcipt Re: carly(tm) transcipt Error log message Re: Error log message Re: Error log message Example of Windows crippling a company for 2 weeks Re: Example of Windows crippling a company for 2 weeks Re: HP Press release about 18th event Re: Jan 18 Webcast - viewable with MS Windows Only? Re: Jan 18 Webcast - viewable with MS Windows Only? Re: Livermore transcript Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement RE: MemoryChannel VMS Cluster problem New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium Re: Simple EDT or TPU init file Re: Simple EDT or TPU init file Re: Solution Re: Solution Re: Solution Re: Solution Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris) Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris) VMS portions of ECWC "chat" Re: VMS portions of ECWC "chat" Re: VMS portions of ECWC "chat" VMS related questions from chat Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris VMS: Paradigm Webcast and VMS Re: Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast Q+A session transcript - VMS related (mostly) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:56:37 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: carly(tm) transcipt Message-ID: <1106073956.bfa47c0c401f898cbdaa769eb60e259f@teranews> In the few mug shots of carly during her pre recorded presentation, I noticed her neck is starting to look much older than her well manicured face and hair. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:47:48 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: carly(tm) transcipt Message-ID: <8sSdnZOLdcJ4-nDcRVn-jg@igs.net> JF Mezei wrote: > In the few mug shots of carly during her pre recorded presentation, I > noticed her neck is starting to look much older than her well > manicured face and hair. Ok, so you won't make a pass at her now. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 15:53:49 -0800 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: carly(tm) transcipt Message-ID: <1106092429.233131.267350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> JF Mezei wrote: > In the few mug shots of carly during her pre recorded presentation, I > noticed her neck is starting to look much older than her well manicured > face and hair. Are you for real? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 02:42:11 GMT From: "FredK" Subject: Re: carly(tm) transcipt Message-ID: <7OjHd.6095$tk5.1540@news.cpqcorp.net> No, he's not except in his own mind. He and a handful of the regulars are simply at the point of making every snide remark they can. "AEF" wrote in message news:1106092429.233131.267350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > JF Mezei wrote: > > In the few mug shots of carly during her pre recorded presentation, I > > noticed her neck is starting to look much older than her well > manicured > > face and hair. > > > Are you for real? > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:00:34 -0500 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: carly(tm) transcipt Message-ID: <41EDDB62.7070602@tsoft-inc.com> AEF wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: > >>In the few mug shots of carly during her pre recorded presentation, I >>noticed her neck is starting to look much older than her well >> > manicured > >>face and hair. >> > > > Are you for real? > > Don't go there. It's a bit like, "Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:43:56 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: carly(tm) transcipt Message-ID: <41EDE583.6EA29DC9@teksavvy.com> Dave Froble wrote: > > Are you for real? > > > > > > Don't go there. It's a bit like, "Be careful what you ask for, you just might > get it." Oh come on guys. There have been a constant flow of comments about Carly's presentation, hairdo, private jets etc etc. Why make such a big fuss about yet another comment about her image ? ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 14:17:23 -0800 From: "ugex" Subject: Error log message Message-ID: <1106086643.450509.249310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> I guys: I have a cluster with 2 vax 4500 and one vax 4000 yesterday one node in 4500 was hang and was necesary push the halt button. The operator log show me a message than I never was see. some one knows if I have hardware issue (network card) o some configuration error..? note: my sqlvax is the quorum disk Node SQLVAX (csid 00010002) lost connection to node VX4000 Node VX4000 (csid 00010001) lost connection to node SQLVAX Node VX4500 (csid 00010003) lost connection to node VX4000 DSA11: shadow set has changed state. Mount verification in progress. Node SQLVAX (csid 00010002) lost connection to node VX4000 Node VX4000 (csid 00010001) lost connection to node SQLVAX Node VX4500 (csid 00010003) lost connection to node VX4000 and the error log show me that: NI-SCS SUB-SYSTEM, _VX4500$PEA0: PORT HAS CLOSED VIRTUAL CIRCUIT LOCAL STATION ADDRESS, FFFFFFFFFF00(X) LOCAL SYSTEM ID, 00000000045F(X) REMOTE STATION ADDRESS, 0000000000DD(X) REMOTE SYSTEM ID, 000000000406(X) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:21:06 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Error log message Message-ID: <41EDC411.C78E4145@comcast.net> ugex wrote: > > I guys: > > I have a cluster with 2 vax 4500 and one vax 4000 > yesterday one node in 4500 was hang and was necesary push the halt > button. > > The operator log show me a message than I never was see. > > some one knows if I have hardware issue (network card) o some > configuration error..? > > note: my sqlvax is the quorum disk > > Node SQLVAX (csid 00010002) lost connection to node VX4000 > Node VX4000 (csid 00010001) lost connection to node SQLVAX > Node VX4500 (csid 00010003) lost connection to node VX4000 > DSA11: shadow set has changed state. > Mount verification in progress. > Node SQLVAX (csid 00010002) lost connection to node VX4000 > Node VX4000 (csid 00010001) lost connection to node SQLVAX > Node VX4500 (csid 00010003) lost connection to node VX4000 > > and the error log show me that: > > NI-SCS SUB-SYSTEM, _VX4500$PEA0: > > PORT HAS CLOSED VIRTUAL CIRCUIT > > LOCAL STATION ADDRESS, FFFFFFFFFF00(X) > LOCAL SYSTEM ID, 00000000045F(X) > > REMOTE STATION ADDRESS, 0000000000DD(X) > REMOTE SYSTEM ID, 000000000406(X) Possibly a bad interface (looks like a CI interface) on VX4500, or something else in its path to the cluster interconnect (bad cable, connection, etc.). Maybe something else entirely. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Coming soon: Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 20:21:59 -0800 From: johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Error log message Message-ID: <1106108519.572906.119770@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> NI-SCS SUB-SYSTEM, _VX4500$PEA0: Would seem to indicate it was using a LAN interface for the cluster interconnect, wouldn't it? If so, start checking the networking cards, cables, switch/hub and the settings on all of these to see if something has changed or gone bad. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:35:26 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Example of Windows crippling a company for 2 weeks Message-ID: <41ED730D.7736060A@teksavvy.com> http://forbes.com/home/enterprisetech/2005/01/17/cx_ah_0117spyfry.html (if the above doesn't work, try: > http://dw.com.com/redir?edId=3&destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fforbes.com%2Fhome%2Fenterprisetech%2F2005%2F01%2F17%2Fcx_ah_0117spyfry.html&lop=mnaw.5540061&oId=2051-12-0&siteId=3&ontId=12&cid=755015 Essentially, McDonald,s largest suplier in the USA had an employeed download some spyware, that bit fo code spread throughout the corporate network and essentially made the company,s it infrastructure come to a halt. Payroll was delayed and it took 2 weeks to get things back up. Good example of the cost of going Windows. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:16:21 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Example of Windows crippling a company for 2 weeks Message-ID: <_cednY1zpr044XDcRVn-1Q@igs.net> JF Mezei wrote: > http://forbes.com/home/enterprisetech/2005/01/17/cx_ah_0117spyfry.html > > (if the above doesn't work, try: >> http://dw.com.com/redir?edId=3&destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fforbes.com%2Fhome%2Fente rprisetech%2F2005%2F01%2F17%2Fcx_ah_0117spyfry.html&lop=mnaw.5540061&oId=205 1-12-0&siteId=3&ontId=12&cid=755015 > > Essentially, McDonald,s largest suplier in the USA had an employeed > download some spyware, that bit fo code spread throughout the > corporate network and essentially made the company,s it > infrastructure come to a halt. Payroll was delayed and it took 2 > weeks to get things back up. > > > Good example of the cost of going Windows. Nothing that a $40,000 spyware site licence and a $40,000 antivirus licence, and , and, and, and, etc... can't fix on top of the $1MM in multiple Windows Server licences. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:14:42 -0500 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: HP Press release about 18th event Message-ID: <41ED6022.2010006@tsoft-inc.com> Robert Deininger wrote: > In article <41EC9517.8050607@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble > wrote: > > >>John Smith wrote: >> >> >>>Keith Parris wrote: >>> >>> >>>>JF Mezei wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> HP (NYSE:HPQ)(Nasdaq:HPQ) today announced that >>>>> in its fiscal year 2004 the company surpassed >>>>> $1 billion in sales of HP Integrity >>>>> server-related solutions, marking a milestone >>>>> in the growing popularity of the servers as a >>>>> leading choice for business' most demanding IT >>>>> workloads. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>This is quite a significant number. And it can only get better with >>>>the VMS announcement tomorrow. >>>> >>>> >>>>>(so much about not being allowed to disclose number prior to >>>>> >>>>quarterly numbers) >>>> >>>>Note that this data covers fiscal year 2004. What you aren't hearing >>>>about here is how much has been sold in Q1FY2005. That would be data >>>>covered by the "quiet period". >>>> >>>> >>> >>>"surpassed $1 billion in sales of HP Integrity server-*related* solutions, >>>marking a milestone in the growing popularity of the servers as a leading >>>choice for business' most demanding IT workloads. >>> > > ... > > > >>My only question is how much of the "software, storage, and services" was >>purchased for Alphas? >> > > Evidently none of it, at least as I understand the phrase "Integrity > server-related". The way I read it, storage was being lumped together with server sales. It didn't read "just storage for Integrity servers". So, can you answer the question, is storage for Alphas NOT included in the overall storage numbers? > Look out! There's another chunk of sky falling, and it's headed our way! > Don't have a good answer, so attempt to divert the issue? Is that the best you have? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:42:08 -0500 From: Peter Sjoberg Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast - viewable with MS Windows Only? Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:26:24 +0000, Kenneth Farmer wrote: > "JF Mezei" wrote in message > news:41EC35E7.EB15E7C2@teksavvy.com... >> Soem, additional information available at: >> >> http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press_kits/2005/integrity/ >> >> Webcast is 1 hour long, with 30 minutes of presentations starting at >> 08:30 PT, and the chat with Ann Livermore starting at 09:PT. > > > Look at the top of that page! > > "HP recommends Microsoft Windows XP Professional" It's not only HP to blame for that. In order for HP to get the big M$ sw discount they have to say that on every page. I think it was up in cort and now they don't have to recommend MS Windows on platforms that MS doesn't support. It's just like that HP pay MS one windows license for every intel box they sell and then the corporation they sold it to pay the license once more with there corporate license agreement. Please correct me and tell me that this is (no longer?) true. I have heard this so many times but I still don't know if it's true. > > Argh! > > > > Ken > > OpenVMS.org > _____________________________________ > Kenneth R. Farmer <>< > SpyderByte: http://www.SpyderByte.com ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 05:43:54 GMT From: Charlie Luce Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast - viewable with MS Windows Only? Message-ID: Direct link to the replay for the Flash-enabled: http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/flashversion/index.html -- CL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:56:46 -0500 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Livermore transcript Message-ID: Wow - Ann certainly can shovel the manure with the best of them. I especially liked this part: John Smith wrote: > Ann Livermore > EVP, Technology Solutions Group ... > More than just numbers from a lab, HP Integrity servers produce business > results. For example, HP and Oracle outperform IBM DB2 on important data > warehousing benchmarks like TPC-H. These types of superior benchmarks > continue across diverse workloads.across multiple servers.and across > multiple operating systems. Oh, really, Ann? Let's take a closer look at TPC-H, since you chose to bring it up: The only direct match-up between Superdome and POWER is at the 10000 scale factor, and there indeed Superdome wins. Of course, it's a recent 128 processor 1.5 GHz/6 MB Superdome cluster pitted against a 2-year-old 160-processor POWER4 (not even POWER4+, let alone POWER5) cluster (kind of reminiscent of the interchange I just had with Fred about the Itanic vs. Alpha face-off), so you might expect that result - and it's not that crushing a win, even then. IBM doesn't seem to take TPC-H very seriously, at least in terms of submitting systems for testing at anything like the rate that HP does. But it has submitted a top-of-the-line 16-processor POWER5 system at the 1000 scaling factor and obtained rather impressive results of 26156 QphH (or 1635 QphH per processor) at a cost of only $53/QphH. The closest point of comparison Superdome offers is a current 64-processor system at the 3000 scaling factor, with results of 45248 QphH (or 707 QphH per processor) at a cost of $109/QphH. Now, given POWER5's already-demonstrated near-linear scaling in TPC-C from 16 processors right up to 64 processors, there's every reason to suspect that at 64 processors it would beat the 64-processor Superdome TPC-H result by a factor of more than 2:1 (not the more than 3:1 advantage it enjoys over Superdome in TPC-C at 64 processors, but still rather decisive). The TPC does discourage comparing TPC-H results at different scaling factors, but a quick glance at the list demonstrates that when near-identical systems are tested at the 1000 and 3000 scaling factor the QphH results are with a few percent of each other, so the burden of proof would seem to be on Ann to prove otherwise if she wants be met with anything other than derisive guffaws when she claims that HP out-performs IBM on TPC-H. Looks like the frantic spin and outright lies comparing Itanic to its competition weren't limited to the Compaq crew. Is it a job requirement these days for high-level executives to discard every shred of integrity they may once have possessed, or it is just the ones we're unfortunately most familiar with who have done so? - bill ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 12:59:42 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Message-ID: In article <87mzv6r7je.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, prep@prep.synonet.com writes: > "FredK" writes: > >> Would you like some whine with your cheese? > > Give it away Fred, this petty sniping does not become you, or the > work you have done. What ? After all the whining that goes on here, the speculation rather than solid technical discussion, you take offense when a VMS developer reacts ? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:20:22 -0500 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Message-ID: <41ED6176.60201@tsoft-inc.com> Bill Todd wrote: > Rob Young wrote: > >> In article , "John Smith" >> writes: >> >>> http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=05/01/17/8991740 >>> >>> "Alpha customers will see 300 to 400 to 500 percent performance >>> improvements," said Rich Marcello, HP's senior vice president and >>> general >>> manager of business critcal servers. The above is quoted, so I'll assume it's what he said. Notice that he doesn't say that Alpha users will see such improvement over their Alphas. Possibly they're to see such improvement over an earlier IA-64. Ok, I'm unfairly picking apart what he said. Just having some fun. I'm sure that such improvements over MY Alphas is reasonable. But that little AlphaStation 200 4/233 sure works well for me. :-) >>> I'll bite..... how's this measured..... a NOP loop? Are we going to >>> have to >>> wait a while to benchmark a 2001 vintage Compaq Alpha vs. a 2009 >>> vintage >>> Itanic? Or are they just going to send Two-Fingers Vito around to >>> kneecap >>> the Alpha? >>> >> >> >> Doesn't really say much does it? Maybe one of the few benchmarks >> for apples-to-apples would be SAP, we'll see. >> >> But from what we see in realworldtech , Montecito will be no >> slouch. So maybe he is thinking or comparing Montecito to current >> EV7. > > > Isn't it impressive what the advantage of two full process generations, > 7 years of additional progress in core technology, and several times the > chip area can do? At least as long as you don't want to compare large > systems (but weren't they the niche to which Itanic was supposed to be > retreating these days?). > > - bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:24:55 -0500 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Message-ID: <41ED6287.9070503@tsoft-inc.com> FredK wrote: > Come on. Its winter, the election is over, and Bill must > have time on his hands. > > I'm just tossing him grapefruits. Trust me, he enjoys it. Maybe so, but be truthful, would you be upset if Alpha was still being developed? If it was, would you expect it to still be better overall than the itanic? > > > wrote in message > news:87mzv6r7je.fsf@prep.synonet.com... > >>"FredK" writes: >> >> >>>Would you like some whine with your cheese? >>> >>Give it away Fred, this petty sniping does not become you, or the >>work you have done. >> >>-- >>Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., >>+61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. >> West Australia 6076 >>comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot >>Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. >>EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. >> > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:47:06 GMT From: "FredK" Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Message-ID: "Dave Froble" wrote in message news:41ED6287.9070503@tsoft-inc.com... > FredK wrote: > > > Come on. Its winter, the election is over, and Bill must > > have time on his hands. > > > > I'm just tossing him grapefruits. Trust me, he enjoys it. > > > Maybe so, but be truthful, would you be upset if Alpha was still being > developed? If it was, would you expect it to still be better overall than the > itanic? > I'd be happy if there never was an Alpha, and they had just figured out how to make VAX fast. Alpha, Itanium. Doesn't really matter much if it isn't a VAX. Alpha was a pain in the ass to be honest - and only it's speed made it worth the pain. Itanium is a pain in the ass, but it will result in lower prices and higher performance. Could we be building Alphas that outperform Itanium? Sure, probably. But with enough money and enough smart people we could probably be building VAX (or VAX-like) systems that outperform Alpha. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 20:58:00 GMT From: "FredK" Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Message-ID: The simple truth is that most of us don't even know what we "really" think. Get me alone, and pour a pint down me and you might hear somehing "different" - but don't bet your life that "it" is what I really think or some better model of the truth. HP is my employer, and it is not in my interest to say bad things about them in public. But nothing in my job code says I have to say anything at all in this forum. If you want to read between any mythical lines, you would do better to look at what I choose to make a comment about, and what I will not comment on. Bill is simply a well known crank with an axe to grind. He has been strangely quiet for a long time, but I have noticed him start to turn back up (with the same song book) in other forums, and now here. If Itanium were to come out 1000% faster than anything else on the planet, his comments would be that A) Alpha would have been faster, B) You can't believe the numbers, C) The power per mm is too high, D) That AMD will have something even faster next week. I'll guess that A) the elections are over. B) some project has wrapped up. or C) it's winter - as my top 3 reasons why he is back. "nobody" wrote in message news:41ED6B29.DC50E240@nobody.org... > Dave Froble wrote: > > FredK wrote: > > > I'm just tossing him grapefruits. Trust me, he enjoys it. > > > > Maybe so, but be truthful, would you be upset if Alpha was still being > > developed? If it was, would you expect it to still be better overall than the > > itanic? > > Don't put DECies in a difficult situation. They have to defend their employer-du-jour. > > I am sure that in the correct environment, with the right amount and > type of liquid, Hoff, Fred and Sue might be able to reveal their true > feelings. But in here, you can only expect them to work hard to defend > their employer. It isn't right to corner them and ask them to publicly > reveal their own opinions which may not match that of their employers. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:01:59 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Message-ID: <886dnZgCOMvV5HDcRVn-tA@igs.net> FredK wrote: > "Dave Froble" wrote in message > news:41ED6287.9070503@tsoft-inc.com... >> FredK wrote: >> >>> Come on. Its winter, the election is over, and Bill must >>> have time on his hands. >>> >>> I'm just tossing him grapefruits. Trust me, he enjoys it. >> >> >> Maybe so, but be truthful, would you be upset if Alpha was still >> being developed? If it was, would you expect it to still be better >> overall than the itanic? >> > > I'd be happy if there never was an Alpha, and they had just > figured out how to make VAX fast. > > Alpha, Itanium. Doesn't really matter much if it isn't a VAX. > Alpha was a pain in the ass to be honest - and only it's > speed made it worth the pain. Itanium is a pain in the ass, > but it will result in lower prices and higher performance. > Could we be building Alphas that outperform Itanium? Sure, > probably. But with enough money and enough smart people > we could probably be building VAX (or VAX-like) systems > that outperform Alpha. Problem is all the smart chip guys are gone, and all the money has been spent twice over (VAX -> Alpha and Alpha -> Itanic). So we live with what we've got - EV7z shrunk once again until Itanic has a wooden stake driven into its cold heart and EV8 is released ;-) Just hoping. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:06:44 -0700 From: "E.S." Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Message-ID: FredK wrote: > I'd be happy if there never was an Alpha, and they had just > figured out how to make VAX fast. > > Alpha, Itanium. Doesn't really matter much if it isn't a VAX. > Alpha was a pain in the ass to be honest - and only it's > speed made it worth the pain. Itanium is a pain in the ass, > but it will result in lower prices and higher performance. > Could we be building Alphas that outperform Itanium? Sure, > probably. But with enough money and enough smart people > we could probably be building VAX (or VAX-like) systems > that outperform Alpha. With todays technology it would be easy to squeeze few hundred VUPS out of a VAX, probably even 4 digits. THAT would be fun ! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 21:39:15 GMT From: "FredK" Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Message-ID: <7mfHd.6066$Rm5.5357@news.cpqcorp.net> "John Smith" wrote in message news:886dnZgCOMvV5HDcRVn-tA@igs.net... > > So we live with what we've got - EV7z shrunk once again until Itanic has a > wooden stake driven into its cold heart and EV8 is released ;-) Just > hoping. > Or Itanium, despite derision from its detractors, continues to move forward, gets faster, gets cheaper. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:17:37 -0500 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Message-ID: <41EDD151.7020004@tsoft-inc.com> FredK wrote: > "Dave Froble" wrote in message > news:41ED6287.9070503@tsoft-inc.com... > >>FredK wrote: >> >> >>>Come on. Its winter, the election is over, and Bill must >>>have time on his hands. >>> >>>I'm just tossing him grapefruits. Trust me, he enjoys it. >>> >> >>Maybe so, but be truthful, would you be upset if Alpha was still being >>developed? If it was, would you expect it to still be better overall than >> > the > >>itanic? >> >> > > I'd be happy if there never was an Alpha, and they had just > figured out how to make VAX fast. ALL - RRRRRRIIIIIGGGGGGHHHHHHTTTTTT !!!!! > Alpha, Itanium. Doesn't really matter much if it isn't a VAX. > Alpha was a pain in the ass to be honest - and only it's > speed made it worth the pain. Itanium is a pain in the ass, > but it will result in lower prices and higher performance. > Could we be building Alphas that outperform Itanium? Sure, > probably. But with enough money and enough smart people > we could probably be building VAX (or VAX-like) systems > that outperform Alpha. What can I say. It's beyond anything I could have dreamed of. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:31:13 -0500 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Message-ID: <41EDD481.60201@tsoft-inc.com> John Smith wrote: > FredK wrote: > >>"Dave Froble" wrote in message >>news:41ED6287.9070503@tsoft-inc.com... >> >>>FredK wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Come on. Its winter, the election is over, and Bill must >>>>have time on his hands. >>>> >>>>I'm just tossing him grapefruits. Trust me, he enjoys it. >>>> >>> >>>Maybe so, but be truthful, would you be upset if Alpha was still >>>being developed? If it was, would you expect it to still be better >>>overall than the itanic? >>> >>> >>I'd be happy if there never was an Alpha, and they had just >>figured out how to make VAX fast. >> >>Alpha, Itanium. Doesn't really matter much if it isn't a VAX. >>Alpha was a pain in the ass to be honest - and only it's >>speed made it worth the pain. Itanium is a pain in the ass, >>but it will result in lower prices and higher performance. >>Could we be building Alphas that outperform Itanium? Sure, >>probably. But with enough money and enough smart people >>we could probably be building VAX (or VAX-like) systems >>that outperform Alpha. >> > > > Problem is all the smart chip guys are gone, and all the money has been > spent twice over (VAX -> Alpha and Alpha -> Itanic). > > So we live with what we've got - EV7z shrunk once again until Itanic has a > wooden stake driven into its cold heart and EV8 is released ;-) Just > hoping. Here's where some of us differ. Yeah, forcing customers to spend money to convert to IA-64, however easy the task is made, was basically bad. Very bad. Hey, now is now. The itanic is all we got. If it's working well enough, fine by me. Yes, I think EPIC is rather a stupid thing to do. So what. If it runs my programs, I'm a whole bunch happier than having no options. My big concern is whether the itanic will survive. If Alpha couldn't survive in the low volume world, why would any other CPU? It's not that IA-32 was as good as VAX and Alpha, but it could do enough things that people previously did on VMS that it caused the VMS user base to shrink. Not so much the serious (my perspective) users, but the trivial users. I knew of plenty of VAXs that existed to run Word-11, WPS, and such. When the PC did it much cheaper, only a fool would pay more to do it on a VAX with character cell terminals. So what's different now? Not a damn thing. IA-32 is still there, and dirt cheap. Athlon-64 and Opteron are now there to further erode those tasks the more expensive systems retained. Ok, something is different, the tasks for the itanic are even less. Only Intel's ego will keep it going, and with the Doberman's (AMD) teeth sunk firmly into their ass, they don't have time for ego. That's my concern. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:10:09 +0000 (UTC) From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER) Subject: RE: MemoryChannel VMS Cluster problem Message-ID: In article , Peter Sjoberg writes: >On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:31:31 +0000, Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote: >> No need to sign up at all. ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/alpha/V7.3-1/ >Probably works also if you know what you looking for or don't mind reading >all release notes. Which are not that much. Start with the following (mind the wrapping) ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/alpha/V7.3-2/ALPHA_V732_MASTER_ECO_LIST.txt -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 21:45:30 +0100 From: Keith Cayemberg Subject: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Message-ID: <41ed756b$0$17612$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net> Just a "heads-up" for those who missed these links during the OpenVMS on Itanium announcement today... OpenVMS Version 8.2 announcement page http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms82_announce.html HP OpenVMS : Still exceeding expectations http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/brochures/openvms_brochure.htm http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/5982-9831EN.pdf http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/PDF/OpenVMS_0105a.pdf HP OpenVMS V8.2 : The evolution and investment continue - PDF http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/PDF/HP_OpenVMS_V8.2_Wp.pdf HP OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 (OpenVMS I64) Business Practices for HP Integrity Servers - PDF http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/PDF/OpenVMS_Biz_Prac_wp.pdf HP OpenVMS 2005 Business Solutions CD http://h71000.www7.hp.com/business_solutions_cd.html The HP OpenVMS Approach to High Availability Computing - PDF http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/PDF/OpenVMS_HA_WP.pdf HP OpenVMS and the Adaptive Enterprise http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/adaptenterprise/index.html This informative new video celebrates the legendary OpenVMS operating system now available on Integrity servers. "OpenVMS continues to be a strategic platform for HP. This is demonstrated by the new release of OpenVMS Version 8.2 for both Integrity servers and AlphaServer systems. With OpenVMS now supporting Integrity servers, we have expanded our multi-OS capability" states Ann Livermore, Executive Vice President for the HP Technology Solutions Group. This video also features several field-test customers of OpenVMS Version 8.2, as well as Mark Gorham, VP OpenVMS systems and Jack Novia, Senior VP and Managing Director for the Americas. http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/integrity/integrity_video.html HP Integrity server family animation video http://www.hpbroadband.com/program.cfm?key=integrity Cheers! Keith Cayemberg ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 21:33:40 GMT From: "Doc." Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Message-ID: %NEWS-I-NEWMSG, Keith Cayemberg wrote in news:41ed756b$0$17612$9b4e6d93 @newsread4.arcor-online.net > OpenVMS Version 8.2 announcement page > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms82_announce.html We get lots of advertising suggestions here, why not put them somewhere else too? http://slashdot.org/submit.pl Doc. -- OpenVMS: Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems. http://www.openvms-rocks.com Deathrow Public-Access OpenVMS Cluster. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:27:07 GMT From: "Kenneth Farmer" Subject: Re: New and Refreshed Advertising Colateral for OpenVMS Message-ID: <%2gHd.4237$K72.1023220@twister.southeast.rr.com> Nice Keith. I posted on OpenVMS.org. Doc suggested Slashdot.org. I would also suggest OSNews.com. Ken OpenVMS.org _____________________________________ Kenneth R. Farmer <>< SpyderByte: http://www.SpyderByte.com "Keith Cayemberg" wrote in message news:41ed756b$0$17612$9b4e6d93@newsread4.arcor-online.net... > > Just a "heads-up" for those who missed these links during the OpenVMS on > Itanium announcement today... > > OpenVMS Version 8.2 announcement page > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms82_announce.html > > HP OpenVMS : Still exceeding expectations > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/brochures/openvms_brochure.htm > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/5982-9831EN.pdf > http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/PDF/OpenVMS_0105a.pdf > > HP OpenVMS V8.2 : The evolution and investment continue - PDF > http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/PDF/HP_OpenVMS_V8.2_Wp.pdf > > HP OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 (OpenVMS I64) Business Practices for HP > Integrity Servers - PDF > http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/PDF/OpenVMS_Biz_Prac_wp.pdf > > HP OpenVMS 2005 Business Solutions CD > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/business_solutions_cd.html > > The HP OpenVMS Approach to High Availability Computing - PDF > http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/PDF/OpenVMS_HA_WP.pdf > > HP OpenVMS and the Adaptive Enterprise > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/adaptenterprise/index.html > > This informative new video celebrates the legendary OpenVMS operating > system now available on Integrity servers. "OpenVMS continues to be a > strategic platform for HP. This is demonstrated by the new release of > OpenVMS Version 8.2 for both Integrity servers and AlphaServer systems. > With OpenVMS now supporting Integrity servers, we have expanded our > multi-OS capability" states Ann Livermore, Executive Vice President for > the HP Technology Solutions Group. This video also features several > field-test customers of OpenVMS Version 8.2, as well as Mark Gorham, VP > OpenVMS systems and Jack Novia, Senior VP and Managing Director for the > Americas. > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/integrity/integrity_video.html > > HP Integrity server family animation video > http://www.hpbroadband.com/program.cfm?key=integrity > > Cheers! > > Keith Cayemberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:58:38 -0500 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium Message-ID: <41ED5C5E.1070200@tsoft-inc.com> Robert Deininger wrote: > In article <41EC90D7.2020005@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble > wrote: > > >>Keith Parris wrote: >> >> >>>Integrity Servers cost less than the equivalent Alpha box (thanks to >>>economies of scale). So it's not hard to convince intelligent people to >>>purchase them. >>> >> >>Can you be specific about "economies of scale"? >> >> > > ... > > >>Does an Alpha box really cost more to mfg? My bet is that HP is charging a >>premium for Alpha, since the only customers left don't have any other choices. >>A bit like a MicroVAX 3100 model 98 costing twice as much as an Alpha that was >>10 times faster. >> > > Alpha systems absolutely cost more to make than similar Integrity > systems. You'd lose your bet if the numbers were available to the > public. Since they're not, you're safe with your wild public > speculations. Nice shot, but is doesn't address the question. > The HP system designers are have traditionally been much more cost-aware > than the Alpha system designers at Digital. Integrity systems have much > more re-use of components and subsystems, for example. The HP design > teams are just better at low-cost design than their Digital counterparts, > likely because their managers have pushed for low cost for years. There > is a cultural difference that couldn't happen overnight even if Digital > had wanted to design lower-cost servers. > Your responce seems to indicate that it's the system design, not the CPU chip that makes the difference. Does that indicate that the HP design teams could produce an Alpha CPU based system at a cost comparable to an IA-64 based system? If not, then what makes a system using an Alpha CPU more expensive. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 04:33:36 GMT From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium Message-ID: In article <41ED5C5E.1070200@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble wrote: >Robert Deininger wrote: > >> In article <41EC90D7.2020005@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble >> wrote: >> >> >>>Keith Parris wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Integrity Servers cost less than the equivalent Alpha box (thanks to >>>>economies of scale). So it's not hard to convince intelligent people to >>>>purchase them. >>>> >>> >>>Can you be specific about "economies of scale"? >>> >>> >> >> ... >> >> >>>Does an Alpha box really cost more to mfg? My bet is that HP is charging a >>>premium for Alpha, since the only customers left don't have any other choices. >>>A bit like a MicroVAX 3100 model 98 costing twice as much as an Alpha that was >>>10 times faster. >>> >> >> Alpha systems absolutely cost more to make than similar Integrity >> systems. You'd lose your bet if the numbers were available to the >> public. Since they're not, you're safe with your wild public >> speculations. > > >Nice shot, but is doesn't address the question. See my reply to J.F. >> The HP system designers are have traditionally been much more cost-aware >> than the Alpha system designers at Digital. Integrity systems have much >> more re-use of components and subsystems, for example. The HP design >> teams are just better at low-cost design than their Digital counterparts, >> likely because their managers have pushed for low cost for years. There >> is a cultural difference that couldn't happen overnight even if Digital >> had wanted to design lower-cost servers. >> > >Your responce seems to indicate that it's the system design, not the CPU chip >that makes the difference. Does that indicate that the HP design teams could >produce an Alpha CPU based system at a cost comparable to an IA-64 based system? Yes, the whole system design determines the cost. The CPU chip is just one part of the problem. I suspect either team could come up with a lower-cost Alpha server design, but only if they got to start from scratch and not be tied to existing design tradition. And only if low cost was a clear goal backed by management. In that situation (which hasn't existed for Alpha for a decade, maybe never) I don't know which team would do better. Of course, starting from scratch would add a couple of years to the design cycle, which might lead to a product with other problems. DS15 was brought to market at breakneck speed. They had to re-use (conceptually) almost everything, mainly from DS25 and DS10. They HAD to finish quickly, but a secondary goal was to reduce the cost. They tried, but the result is pretty disappointing compared to an rx1600 or rx2600. If DS15 had abandoned the short design cycle and the reuse, it could have been cheaper. But a DS15 12 or 18 or 24 months later might have been too weak a product to be interesting in the marketplace. >If not, then what makes a system using an Alpha CPU more expensive. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 04:10:35 GMT From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium Message-ID: In article <41ED4783.F705C654@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei wrote: >Robert Deininger wrote: >> Alpha systems absolutely cost more to make than similar Integrity >> systems. You'd lose your bet if the numbers were available to the >> public. Since they're not, you're safe with your wild public >> speculations. > >Why should an Alpha box cost more than an IA64 box ? >Is the the power supply ? Almost always. >Is it the case ? Usually. >Is it the disk drives ? Probably not. >Is it the connectors ? Yes. >Is it the type of memory ? Often. >Are alpha servers built with gold solder instead of lead ? No. > >If it is just the chip which is different, then I doubt that Alpha chips >actualy cost more than IA64, especially if HP ordered one large batch of >them made for a final production. Alpha CPUs do in fact cost a lot more than IA64. I don't know why. I don't think either benefits greatly from economies of scale. But if you spend 5 minutes inside a recent alpha server and a similar Integrity server, you will see that it's NOT just the CPU which is different. >(Higher volum the smaller quaktities >of IA64s being made in light of the fact that the chip is still evolving >and you don't want to stockpile years worth of Merced supplies). > >If IA64 and Alpha servers are of same quality, I do not buy the argument >that the Alpha has to be more expensive. Remember that many were done >under Compaq which also had good "low cost manufacturing" expertise. Alpha systems might not HAVE TO cost more, but they do. Low-cost designs were simply not a strength of the Digital server design teams, and were not a particular interest of the management food chain. Could they have done better? Yes, but they rarely did in practice. Alpha servers are (mostly) excellent designs, but low-cost was not high on the list of goals. That might be one reason Digital didn't survive. They merger with Compaq did not affect the way Alpha systems were designed at all. The Digital teams pretty much continued as always, until they were dispersed. The supply chain overlap between Alpha systems and the Compaq PC business was pretty minor -- disk drives, CD-ROMs, sometimes memory. Not a heck of a lot else. The Digital and Compaq manufacturing facilities weren't combined particularly well either. Compaq may have had low cost manufacturing expertise for PCs, but it never transfered to the server business. There were some notable failures at trying to do so. The HP teams that design and build IA64 systems pay particular attention to cost. There is increasing overlap in the supply chains for PCs and servers. There are fewer minor variations in parts, meaning fewer types of spares to buy and stock. HP is just better at low-cost servers than Digital was, and the prices for customers reflect this. Folks might enjoy bashing HP, but they deserve credit for doing a pretty good job in this area. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:34:18 -0800 From: Fred Bach Subject: Re: Simple EDT or TPU init file Message-ID: <41ED64BA.2070802@triumf.ca> John, It's getting away from the original idea of SIMPLE, granted. However, like I tell my students - the only way you don't get any complaints or comments about your code is either when it's completely perfect to start with, or when nobody uses it at all. So if they get no feedback on their software, the latter scenario is much more likely. I tell them that when people notice things and request changes or additions, or when people complain, it means that people find the software interesting and useful. Complaints are good. ********* Mouse-copying straight into EVE and exiting as BIGVIEW.TPU gave errors when I ran it as BIGV*IEW == "EDIT/TPU/READ/COMMAND=SYS$LOGIN:BIGVIEW.TPU/NOINIT/NOSECTION/NOJOURNAL" so I figured TPU must not like some particular line wrapping. I concatenated the "set (status_line.... " line. Works like a charm! Thanks! I wasn't the original poster/requester on this thread, but I thought this was just too good a thread to miss.... I'm so glad to see that our good friend Ken Fairfield joined in with ideas. He's another TPU genious (unlike myself who stuck with DCL). Clever use of split_line moves on the screen but NOT in the buffer. Nice. I think you also have potentially solved the shift-right problem. Since you specify the escape#3 / 4 in the copy_text command as a string-literal anyway, you many have escaped (pardon the pun) the problem that Ken noticed - all one needs to do is take a piece of the_line which is shifted to the right by the selected shift amount, and put that into the copy_text along with the escape sequence which is already there. Nice. This is just getting better and better all the time! I was thinking of changing the coding so that kp9 was page-up kp3 was page-down, kp8 was line-up, kp2 was line-down, kp6 was shift-right and kp4 was shift left. kp7 could be top-of-file and kp1 would be exit. This matches the keypad on my Fujitsu PC keyboard model FKB4725. I suppose we would eventually need to find a job for the kp5 key, maybe toggle from normal to double-sized. I suppose for that one would have to remember where the cursor is and then just rewrite the screen to that point and restore the cursor position. Or, maybe kp5 could be the exit key and kp1 could jump to the end of the buffer (again matching the keyboard markings), and kp+ could toggle between the various double-wide/high/size options and kp- could restore normal-sized text. There are many options. I don't think there is any existing VMS program that does what we are designing here, is there? Cheers, .. Fred Bach music at triumf dot ca .. Big John wrote: > Well I can't resist a challenge.. > > I decided that I would see if I could do it between the start of > lunch time and the time the microwave went ping for my food. > > This is what I threw up. (Sorry, put together). I made some > assumptions. > - 'Double size' means both height and width. > - 'By default' means it displays it only in that size. No > clever keystroke to toggle it. > > Here is BIGVIEW.TPU > > input_file := GET_INFO (COMMAND_LINE, "file_name"); > input_buffer := CREATE_BUFFER ("input", input_file); > main_buffer:= CREATE_BUFFER ("main"); > window_size := (GET_INFO(screen,"length")+1)/2*2-1; > > position (BEGINNING_OF (input_buffer)); > LOOP > exitif (mark(none) = end_of(current_buffer)); > the_line := current_line; > position (end_of (main_buffer)); > copy_text (ascii(27)+"#3"+the_line); > split_line; > copy_text (ascii(27)+"#4"+the_line); > position (input_buffer); > move_vertical (1); > ENDLOOP; > > position (BEGINNING_OF (main_buffer)); > main_window := create_window(1,window_size,ON); > SET (TEXT,main_window,NO_TRANSLATE); > set (status_line, main_window, REVERSE, > " |Up = 8| |Down = 2| |Page Up = 4| |Page down = 6| |Exit = > 1|" ); > > the_key_map := create_key_map ("user_keys"); > the_key_map_list := create_key_map_list ("keylist", the_key_map); > > set (UNDEFINED_KEY, the_key_map_list, "abort"); > set (KEY_MAP_LIST, the_key_map_list, main_buffer); > set (SELF_INSERT, the_key_map_list, OFF); > > MAP (main_window,main_buffer); > message (ascii(27)+"[?25l"); > > ! > define_key ("message(ascii(27)+'[?25h');QUIT (OFF,1)", > kp1, the_key_map); > define_key ("message(ascii(27)+'[?25h');QUIT (OFF,1)", > KEY_NAME ("1"), the_key_map); > > define_key ("scroll (current_window, 2)", > kp2, the_key_map); > define_key ("scroll (current_window, 2)", > KEY_NAME ("2"), the_key_map); > > > define_key ("scroll (current_window, -2)", > kp8, the_key_map); > define_key ("scroll (current_window, -2)", > KEY_NAME ("8"), the_key_map); > > define_key ("scroll (current_window, window_size-3)", > kp6, the_key_map); > define_key ("scroll (current_window, window_size-3)", > KEY_NAME ("6"), the_key_map); > > define_key ("scroll (current_window, -window_size+3)", > kp4, the_key_map); > define_key ("scroll (current_window, -window_size+3)", > KEY_NAME ("4"), the_key_map); > > define_key ("scroll (current_window, 2)", > down, the_key_map); > > define_key ("scroll (current_window, -2)", > up, the_key_map); > ! > > Yeah! Bon appetit! > > - John > > > > Ken Fairfield wrote: > >>Big John wrote: >> >> >>>Fred Bach wrote: >> >>[...] >> >>>> ps. Is there any way to make TPU display the file in >>>> doublesized letters by default? I know how to do that >>>> in DCL. ..fwb. >>>> >>> >>> >>>That sounds like a challenge! The answer is - Yes, there is. >> >> But the problem is under-specified! First, do you want >>double-high/wide, or just double-wide, letters? Second, do >>you want to turn this on and off by a keystroke, or just >>always display the text large? >> >> I agree with John that this is a challenge, especially >>in the context of SIMPLE.TPU...which was supposed to be >>simple but this adds considerable complication... :-) >> >> Two hints are that, for double-wide, each line of text >>must be prefixed with #6, but for double-high/wide, >>each line must be duplicated with the first of each pair >>prefixed with #3 and the second with #4. Secondly, >>one uses SET(TEXT,CURRENT_WINDOW,NO_TRANSLATE) to get the >>characters displayed large in the TPU window. (To revert, >>replace NO_TRANSLATE by BLANK_TABS.) >> >> So you wind up reading the file into a buffer and processing >>it a line at a time, either in-place or to a second buffer, >>adding the prefix escape sequences as required and then >>displaying the results in a window set NO_TRANSLATE. >> >> A final complication is that if you shift the window right, >>the text reverts to normal display (the escape sequences have >>been shifted out of the window). >> >> Other than that, its just a SMOP. :-) >> >> -Ken >>-- >>I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me... >> >>Ken Fairfield >>D1C Automation VMS System Support >>who: kenneth dot h dot fairfield >>where: intel dot com > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:37:15 -0800 From: Fred Bach Subject: Re: Simple EDT or TPU init file Message-ID: <41ED656B.7010207@triumf.ca> Peter, The challenge was for a plain old VT100. -- Fred Bach music at triumf dot ca Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote: [ snip ] >> >>Here is BIGVIEW.TPU > > > Has anyone thought of the MOTIF Interface of EVE and setting bigger fonts ? > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:39:26 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Solution Message-ID: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <41ED55F6.5B2DE9FF@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei > writes: >> Ken Robinson wrote: >>> It looks like they fixed the problem. Now it says "Loading part 2" >>> and then continues... >> >> >> I won't bother. I've wasted enough time on this. We, as VMS >> loyalists, had been told to expect great things from this LIVE web >> cast. Not only is the presentatio medium totally flawed, and not >> only is this just a pre-recorded message devoid of content, but it >> does nothing to increase VMS's exposure. >> >> The articles and press releases of yesterday had far more content >> than today's supposed event. >> >> >> In fairness, the choice of flash over microsoft is a good political >> move, even if from a technology point of view, it doesn't seem to be >> ready for prime time. Flash is available on far more platforms than >> Microsoft media thing. >> >> Airbus also tried used flash earlier today for its unveiling of the >> A380 beast. I did manage to get a couple of frames after about an >> hour. Thankfully the BBC carried a lot of the presentation. But at >> lea theyd to stream live content. >> >> It is amazing that web technologies are fairly mature and there >> should be experience on capacity planning and testing of >> "facilities" to provide reliable webcasts. > > > Hmmm. Steve Jobs' keynote from Macworld San Francisco '05 plays > flawlessly > and much better quality than the Flash of the "Great HP OpenVMS on > Itanium" > we were asked to tune into today. Perhaps, HP needs to adopt > QuickTime to > go along with the iPods they've adopted. Apple isn't ashamed to promote the technology they developed/own. HP is (VMS....Q.E.D.). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:14:35 +0000 From: John Laird Subject: Re: Solution Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:36:30 GMT, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >Perhaps, HP needs to adopt QuickTime Oh Ghod please no. QT on Windows is terrible. iTunes on Windows is terrible (alone amongst about 8 audio players on my kids PC, it cannot detect audio tracks on audio CDs). I'm sure they are all great apps on Macs, where they should stay, imho. -- Always forgive your enemies. They HATE that! Mail john rather than nospam... ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 13:00:50 -0800 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: Solution Message-ID: <1106082050.867378.242870@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> JF Mezei wrote: > Ken Robinson wrote: > > It looks like they fixed the problem. Now it says "Loading part 2" and > > then continues... > > > I won't bother. I've wasted enough time on this. We, as VMS loyalists, > had been told to expect great things from this LIVE web cast. Not only > is the presentatio medium totally flawed, and not only is this just a > pre-recorded message devoid of content, but it does nothing to increase > VMS's exposure. Well, VMS is placed prominently on the New Products page. In fact, it is placed by itself, second, with the other OS's lumped together in one section at the end. Click on the VMS link and you are off into pages that promote VMS and only VMS. So it is not NOTHING. Frankly, while certainly not cause for maximum euphoria, this Webcast was definitely better re VMS than I expected it to be. Again, I encourage cov readers to take up Ann's call for suggestions for promoting VMS. It is easy to gripe, but griping won't help much. Please keep it polite and constructive! [...] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:47:48 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Solution Message-ID: <41EDAE2D.39283C1@teksavvy.com> AEF wrote: > Well, VMS is placed prominently on the New Products page. In fact, it > is placed by itself, second, with the other OS's lumped together in one > section at the end. I went to www.hp.com and to the la fiorina web presentation page. Couldn't find a "New Products Page". How does one go hunting for that page when one knows the page is supposed to be somewhere ? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:43:18 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris) Message-ID: On 18 Jan 2005 11:31:25 -0600, Larry Kilgallen wrote: > From http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP4187/SP4187PF.PDF : > Source Listings Kits > QB-MT1AB-E8 OpenVMS Alpha Listings CD-ROM Kit and License > QB-001AB-E8 OpenVMS VAX Listings CD-ROM Kit and License > OpenVMS Source Listings Service > QT-MT1AB-Q8 OpenVMS Alpha Source Listings Service > QT-001AB-Q8 OpenVMS VAX Source Listings Service > QB- gets you the current version (7.3-2 for Alpha, 7.3 for VAX) > and QT- gets you updates as they are released. And we can get these through DSPP? I think you indicated in an earlier post that it was no longer available through Businesslink -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 13:49:10 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris) Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > On 18 Jan 2005 11:31:25 -0600, Larry Kilgallen > wrote: > >> From http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP4187/SP4187PF.PDF : >> Source Listings Kits >> QB-MT1AB-E8 OpenVMS Alpha Listings CD-ROM Kit and License >> QB-001AB-E8 OpenVMS VAX Listings CD-ROM Kit and License >> OpenVMS Source Listings Service >> QT-MT1AB-Q8 OpenVMS Alpha Source Listings Service >> QT-001AB-Q8 OpenVMS VAX Source Listings Service >> QB- gets you the current version (7.3-2 for Alpha, 7.3 for VAX) >> and QT- gets you updates as they are released. > > And we can get these through DSPP? I think you indicated in an earlier > post > that it was no longer available through Businesslink Nothing is available through BusinessLink at present. At least the services are not available through DSPP at present. I don't know about the initial kits. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:33:15 +0000 (UTC) From: hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) Subject: VMS portions of ECWC "chat" Message-ID: As promised...VMS (or Alphaserver related to VMS) only. Moderator: The chat has ended. Thanks for your questions! Q: Any plans to get SAP back on VMS after, like so many large ISVs, they were told by Digital's Bob Palmer in the 1990s to move off VMS because it was being widthdrawn in favour of NT ? Rhonda Rubinstein (A): SAP supports HP Integrity across HP-UX, Linux and Windows. Customers are able to run SAP applications on Integrity on these operating systems leveraging OVMS on the backend. Q: Is their a program for tru64 users to migrate to OpenVMS? Mark Hudson (A): Our AlphaRetain Trust program provides customers with a complete offering of capabilities, services, and financing to assist customers in their evolution...The program has been very well received by customers, analysts, and others.... Q: How can I believe that Oracle will be certified on Itanium in a timely fashion, when 10g of Oracle still hasn't been certified on OpenVMS Alpha? Don Jenkins (A): I don't have specific information on Oracle 10G or Alpha VMS, we can certainly follow-up on that one for you. Send me an email at donald.jenkins@hp.com. Regarding Integrity OpenVMS, because Integrity is our go-forward platform and Oracle 10G is the latest Oracle database release, both we and Oracle expect the majority of our future business for Oracle 10G and beyond would be on the Integrity Platform as opposed to the Alpha platform. Often times we work with our ISVs to port the latest version of an application on our most up to date platform. Q: An Intel executive recently said he didn't see much use for Itanium in the low-end. Please respond to this. For an OLTP (SAP) on Alpha customer, this makes it sould like we should only move to Itanium if we are large enough to warrant a Superdome. Otherwise, just go to Linux on ProLiant. Don Jenkins (A): We have worked w/Intel to clarify Mr. Otellini's comments. Itanium is intended as a broad RISC replacement, mainframe replacement and high performance technical computing product from Intel. Intel is addressing all markets from large systems to the smallest RISC systems (1 and 2P). In fact we have an aggressive program to drive down costs for Integrity Servers. The RX1620 server annuonced in November 04 starts at under $5K. We have deployed 180 SAP sites on Integrity during the last 6 months, demonstrating excellent growth in the SAP business. Many of these customers are deploying on 2 - way and 4-way servers. So I think it's a very broad market. Q: I am very interested to understand the performance of OpenVMS and its applications on the Itanium chip versus the Alpha Chip. Are there benchmarks currently available that compare the two? Brian Cox (A): Though industry standard benchmarks have not been published on OpenVMS 8.2 running on Integrity servers, in-house tests at HP comparing OpenVMS on Integrity vs. AlphaServer systems show a significant jump in performance on Integrity. This has also been the experience of end customers who used the beta version of OpenVMS on Integrity servers. Moderator: The chat ends in 5 minutes. Q: It seems that HP is quite satified with the installed base of OpenVMS. But, are you looking for *NEW* customers, too? If so, what are your arguments to convince a new customer to stay off from Windows and Linux/Unix? Ann Livermore (A): What we find today is that it is difficult to convince new customers to adopt an operating environment that they do not view as an industry standard. That makes it hard for HP to attract lots of new customers to OpenVMS. Our greatest sales success comes from those customers who already have OpenVMS and choose to expand into new application areas. If you have suggestions for us, we would love to hear them! Q: Can you share any reactions and insights from HP customers who have been testing the new OpenVMS and Integrity systems? Mark Hudson (A): The response has been very positive, as Gerd Koebschall, Director Head of Department VMS and XETRA/EUREX Operations, Deutsche Borse Systems AG, recently stated, "We just ported the complete software of the Eurex Exchange, which currently consist of 5 million lines of source code, to OpenVMS on Integrity servers. In the test environment, this migration has already been a success." Q: You say HP unix is a great alternative for IBM and Sun customers ... why not OpenVMS? Don Jenkins said "OpenVMS is also a great solution - provided our customers are open to using an OS other than UNIX. We also must make sure that the applications (including infrastructure apps) are available that our customers require." Why not actively sell Alpha-based solutions TODAY where apps ARE available, and then transition new customers to Integrity if, as, and when IA-64 application parity is reached? Not doing so loses you sales. Don Jenkins (A): Most customers would like to avoid starting on Alpha and converting to Integrity. We have had this discussion w/many customers and in some cases customers have chose to start w/Alpha and later move to Integrity. This is typically the exceptiona and not the rule as most customers would elect to wait until the applications are available on Integrity. Q: How HP is encouraging Alpha OVMS Oracle RDB users to switch to Itanium OVMS? Don Jenkins (A): Our first job is to make sure that Oracle DB and/or Oracle rDB are available for openVMS on Integrity and fully certified. Next we will work with our customers through the Alpha Retain Trust program to provide roadmap consulting, business practices and services to assist in transitioning to Integrity. Q: We are an small alphaserver/alphastation customer and have heard from intel that itanium will be for large sites only ... what about us customers who need small workgroup servers? Don Jenkins (A): Great question, integrity servers will serve a wide price range, includign small servers in the under $10K category, in fact the RX 1620 starts at under $5K an excellent value for small business. Moderator: The chat ends in 15 minutes. Q: If a company with a "Tired mainframe" calls HP today and says that they want to replace it with an Integrity server would the sales person send them information about OpenVMS, HP-UX, Windows or all three? Ann Livermore (A): The sales person would send them information on the solution that best meets their needs. Today we have customers who are migrating from mainframes to HP environments. Sometimes NonStop...sometimes Unix....sometimes OpenVMS...and sometimes Windows or Linux. The great thing for customers is that we will recommend and deploy the best answer for them, not just the thing we happen to sell. Q: Ann: Can we now expect to see OpenVMS gain more visibility to new customers now that it has been ported to Integrity? Ann Livermore (A): We certainly hope so! It's a great operating environment, and clearly today's Integrity announcement gives the solution a strong future. Q: When will the higher-ups at HP realize the value of VMS as being not just another version of a toy operating system, or a billybox OS, and really tout it as unique, solid, reliable, mission-critical, etc? Or are you all so caught up in towing the Microsoft party line? Ann Livermore (A): OpenVMS is one of the most powerful operating environments in the industry. The fact that we chose to make OpenVMS available on Integrity speaks to the fact that HP executives understand its value and want it as a powerful part of our portfolio. Q: What special porting tools will you make available to move from Alpha to Itanium. WHen the port of VAX to Alpha was announced, there was not a direct way to move Oracle based applications with embedded SQL to the Alpha. Instead the solution was a re-compile and re-link in the new environment. WIll a better porting tool be available to move Oracle applications? Don Jenkins (A): Moving from Alpha to Integrity will require a re-hosting of the data base. Oracle is working on improved export/import tools in the Oracle 10g timeframe that will make this transition faster and easier (including a checkpoint/restart if you need to stop in mid transition for any reason). I'm not sure about the need to recompile embedded SQL code. Your sales rep should be able to help you with the details. Q: Ann, Being an HP SMB partner, I like your answer to the question regarding your Consulting Division. What plans does HP have to connect customers in need with its partners that can deliver these services ? The question is somewhat OpenVMS specific. We are told that there is lot's of support/migration work out there. More with the Integrity now in play. How can experienced partners help H.P. in keeping OpenVMS at the best-in-breed level is now exists at ? Ann Livermore (A): The delivery of great services by HP and our partners is what makes OpenVMS customers so loyal. Services around OpenVMS can be a great business opportunity for you. Your local HP sales or marketing contacts can help get you any information you need. Q: You say HP unix is a great alternative for IBM and Sun customers ... why not OpenVMS? Don Jenkins (A): OpenVMS is also a great solution - provided our customers are open to using an OS other than UNIX. We also must make sure that the applications (including infrastructure apps) are available that our customers require. Q: What layered products or products from your ISVs are being made available on OpenVMS 8.2 on the Integrity platform along with your announcement? If not when is the earliest that we would see other products being available on OpenVMS in the Itanium family? Don Jenkins (A): We have commitments from our ISVs for over 700 applications for OpenVMS on Integrity. We expect to have 250 or more by this spring (March/April) and over 500 by the end of 2005. ISV support for OpenVMS has been very positive. Q: As a highend OpenVMS customer, we need Oracle to support mixed clusters of HP AlphaServers and HP Integrity. Can you help us convince Oracle to support this? Don Jenkins (A): We are working with Oracle on full support of both rDB and Oracle DB on OpenVMS for Integrity. Mixed clusters is on the table. I don't have specific info at this time on potential support. Q: Carly said one in three servers shipped is an HP server. Can you "slice and dice" this further? What percentage are shipped to large enterprises? What percentage are Linux vs. Unix? Thanks. Mark Hudson (A): Thanks for the question...It encompasses all our different types of servers that we offer our customers including Proliant servers, Integrity servers, AlphaServer, HP9000, and NonStop...About half of servers go into the enterprise space...Concerning the percentage for Linux and Unix, it depends if you look at it from a shipment or revenue perspective, bottom line we have nice distribution across Linux, Window, and Unix depending on the customer application needs..... Q: What reassurances can you offer IT executives that HP-UX and VMS are platforms on which they can bet the future of their businesses, in terms of support from HP and from the larger developer community? Ann Livermore (A): Let me start with OpenVMS. With the announcement we have just made with OpenVMS and Integrity, there is no better investment protection that customers could possibly have for their Alpha server investments. With HP-UX, the availability of our current RISC offerings and now our Integrity offerings are very powerful for customers. There are many customers today who are paying too much for their IBM mainframe environments and their Sun environments. HP-UX on Itanium is a great answer for them. The combination of the performance improvements, the high availability, the virtualization, and the thousands of ISV applications make HP-UX a very powerful solution. Q: What are the three main changes and the three main advantages of the new Itanium 2 processor ? Brian Cox (A): The three main changes are faster frequency, larger cache size and lower costs for the new Itanium 2 processor line-up. The advantages are faster application performance, even more attractive cost of ownership and growing OS support (with the addition of OpenVMS)/many new applications. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 13:04:09 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: VMS portions of ECWC "chat" Message-ID: In article , hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) writes: > As promised...VMS (or Alphaserver related to VMS) only. Thanks. So what portion of the total content was that VMS-related content you extracted ? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:07:29 +0000 (UTC) From: hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) Subject: Re: VMS portions of ECWC "chat" Message-ID: In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: !In article , hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) writes: !> As promised...VMS (or Alphaserver related to VMS) only. ! !Thanks. ! !So what portion of the total content was that VMS-related content you !extracted ? Approximately 3/11ths (started out with 11 pages of a M$ Word Doc, ended up with three pages :-)) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:50:28 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: VMS related questions from chat Message-ID: <41ED5A6B.D4A5C247@teksavvy.com> I took what I had in the chat window (not sure if 100% complete). I know not all questions were fake since one question of mine did make it. But many questions didn't make it. Q: Any plans to get SAP back on VMS after, like so many large ISVs, they were told by Digital's Bob Palmer in the 1990s to move off VMS because it was being widthdrawn in favour of NT ? Rhonda Rubinstein (A): SAP supports HP Integrity across HP-UX, Linux and Windows. Customers are able to run SAP applications on Integrity on these operating systems leveraging OVMS on the backend. Q: Is their a program for tru64 users to migrate to OpenVMS? Mark Hudson (A): Our AlphaRetain Trust program provides customers with a complete offering of capabilities, services, and financing to assist customers in their evolution...The program has been very well received by customers, analysts, and others.... Q: How can I believe that Oracle will be certified on Itanium in a timely fashion, when 10g of Oracle still hasn't been certified on OpenVMS Alpha? Don Jenkins (A): I don't have specific information on Oracle 10G or Alpha VMS, we can certainly follow-up on that one for you. Send me an email at donald.jenkins@hp.com. Regarding Integrity OpenVMS, because Integrity is our go-forward platform and Oracle 10G is the latest Oracle database release, both we and Oracle expect the majority of our future business for Oracle 10G and beyond would be on the Integrity Platform as opposed to the Alpha platform. Often times we work with our ISVs to port the latest version of an application on our most up to date platform. Q: will the HP Integrity Virtual Machines also provide support for Windows ? Nick van der Zweep (A): HP Integrity Virtual Machines have been designed to support multiple operating systems including HP-UX, Linux, Windows and OpenVMS. We are evaluating the market for each of these Integrity operating systems on a case by case basis. Q: I am very interested to understand the performance of OpenVMS and its applications on the Itanium chip versus the Alpha Chip. Are there benchmarks currently available that compare the two? Brian Cox (A): Though industry standard benchmarks have not been published on OpenVMS 8.2 running on Integrity servers, in-house tests at HP comparing OpenVMS on Integrity vs. AlphaServer systems show a significant jump in performance on Integrity. This has also been the experience of end customers who used the beta version of OpenVMS on Integrity servers. Q: It seems that HP is quite satified with the installed base of OpenVMS. But, are you looking for *NEW* customers, too? If so, what are your arguments to convince a new customer to stay off from Windows and Linux/Unix? Ann Livermore (A): What we find today is that it is difficult to convince new customers to adopt an operating environment that they do not view as an industry standard. That makes it hard for HP to attract lots of new customers to OpenVMS. Our greatest sales success comes from those customers who already have OpenVMS and choose to expand into new application areas. If you have suggestions for us, we would love to hear them! Q: Can you share any reactions and insights from HP customers who have been testing the new OpenVMS and Integrity systems? Mark Hudson (A): The response has been very positive, as Gerd Koebschall, Director Head of Department VMS and XETRA/EUREX Operations, Deutsche Borse Systems AG, recently stated, "We just ported the complete software of the Eurex Exchange, which currently consist of 5 million lines of source code, to OpenVMS on Integrity servers. In the test environment, this migration has already been a success." Q: You say HP unix is a great alternative for IBM and Sun customers ... why not OpenVMS? Don Jenkins said "OpenVMS is also a great solution - provided our customers are open to using an OS other than UNIX. We also must make sure that the applications (including infrastructure apps) are available that our customers require." Why not actively sell Alpha-based solutions TODAY where apps ARE available, and then transition new customers to Integrity if, as, and when IA-64 application parity is reached? Not doing so loses you sales. Don Jenkins (A): Most customers would like to avoid starting on Alpha and converting to Integrity. We have had this discussion w/many customers and in some cases customers have chose to start w/Alpha and later move to Integrity. This is typically the exceptiona and not the rule as most customers would elect to wait until the applications are available on Integrity. Q: How HP is encouraging Alpha OVMS Oracle RDB users to switch to Itanium OVMS? Don Jenkins (A): Our first job is to make sure that Oracle DB and/or Oracle rDB are available for openVMS on Integrity and fully certified. Next we will work with our customers through the Alpha Retain Trust program to provide roadmap consulting, business practices and services to assist in transitioning to Integrity. Q: We are an small alphaserver/alphastation customer and have heard from intel that itanium will be for large sites only ... what about us customers who need small workgroup servers? Don Jenkins (A): Great question, integrity servers will serve a wide price range, includign small servers in the under $10K category, in fact the RX 1620 starts at under $5K an excellent value for small business. Q: If a company with a "Tired mainframe" calls HP today and says that they want to replace it with an Integrity server would the sales person send them information about OpenVMS, HP-UX, Windows or all three? Ann Livermore (A): The sales person would send them information on the solution that best meets their needs. Today we have customers who are migrating from mainframes to HP environments. Sometimes NonStop...sometimes Unix....sometimes OpenVMS...and sometimes Windows or Linux. The great thing for customers is that we will recommend and deploy the best answer for them, not just the thing we happen to sell. Q: Ann: Can we now expect to see OpenVMS gain more visibility to new customers now that it has been ported to Integrity? Ann Livermore (A): We certainly hope so! It's a great operating environment, and clearly today's Integrity announcement gives the solution a strong future. Q: When will the higher-ups at HP realize the value of VMS as being not just another version of a toy operating system, or a billybox OS, and really tout it as unique, solid, reliable, mission-critical, etc? Or are you all so caught up in towing the Microsoft party line? Ann Livermore (A): OpenVMS is one of the most powerful operating environments in the industry. The fact that we chose to make OpenVMS available on Integrity speaks to the fact that HP executives understand its value and want it as a powerful part of our portfolio. Q: What kind of performance jump will I see when moving from Itanium 2 6M to Itanium 2 9M processors? Brian Cox (A): On the systems we just announced we see up to 25% performance gains (varies by workload) Q: What special porting tools will you make available to move from Alpha to Itanium. WHen the port of VAX to Alpha was announced, there was not a direct way to move Oracle based applications with embedded SQL to the Alpha. Instead the solution was a re-compile and re-link in the new environment. WIll a better porting tool be available to move Oracle applications? Don Jenkins (A): Moving from Alpha to Integrity will require a re-hosting of the data base. Oracle is working on improved export/import tools in the Oracle 10g timeframe that will make this transition faster and easier (including a checkpoint/restart if you need to stop in mid transition for any reason). I'm not sure about the need to recompile embedded SQL code. Your sales rep should be able to help you with the details. . Q: Ann, Being an HP SMB partner, I like your answer to the question regarding your Consulting Division. What plans does HP have to connect customers in need with its partners that can deliver these services ? The question is somewhat OpenVMS specific. We are told that there is lot's of support/migration work out there. More with the Integrity now in play. How can experienced partners help H.P. in keeping OpenVMS at the best-in-breed level is now exists at ? Ann Livermore (A): The delivery of great services by HP and our partners is what makes OpenVMS customers so loyal. Services around OpenVMS can be a great business opportunity for you. Your local HP sales or marketing contacts can help get you any information you need. Q: You say HP unix is a great alternative for IBM and Sun customers ... why not OpenVMS? Don Jenkins (A): OpenVMS is also a great solution - provided our customers are open to using an OS other than UNIX. We also must make sure that the applications (including infrastructure apps) are available that our customers require. Q: What programs are in place to help Tru64 users to migrate to HP-UX on Integrity, given that it is both a hardware and software transition. Don Jenkins (A): We have a full program for our Tru64 customers under the name "Alpha RetainTrust". That program covers both free workshops to help you plan your roadmap and transitions, to on-site services and unique business practices to help ease the financial impact of the transition. There is information of "Alpha RetainTrust" on the HP website, in the BCS section. http://www.hp.com/products1/evolution/index.html Q: What layered products or products from your ISVs are being made available on OpenVMS 8.2 on the Integrity platform along with your announcement? If not when is the earliest that we would see other products being available on OpenVMS in the Itanium family? Don Jenkins (A): We have commitments from our ISVs for over 700 applications for OpenVMS on Integrity. We expect to have 250 or more by this spring (March/April) and over 500 by the end of 2005. ISV support for OpenVMS has been very positive. Q: As a highend OpenVMS customer, we need Oracle to support mixed clusters of HP AlphaServers and HP Integrity. Can you help us convince Oracle to support this? Don Jenkins (A): We are working with Oracle on full support of both rDB and Oracle DB on OpenVMS for Integrity. Mixed clusters is on the table. I don't have specific info at this time on potential support. Q: What reassurances can you offer IT executives that HP-UX and VMS are platforms on which they can bet the future of their businesses, in terms of support from HP and from the larger developer community? Ann Livermore (A): Let me start with OpenVMS. With the announcement we have just made with OpenVMS and Integrity, there is no better investment protection that customers could possibly have for their Alpha server investments. With HP-UX, the availability of our current RISC offerings and now our Integrity offerings are very powerful for customers. There are many customers today who are paying too much for their IBM mainframe environments and their Sun environments. HP-UX on Itanium is a great answer for them. The combination of the performance improvements, the high availability, the virtualization, and the thousands of ISV applications make HP-UX a very powerful solution. Q: What are the three main changes and the three main advantages of the new Itanium 2 processor ? Brian Cox (A): The three main changes are faster frequency, larger cache size and lower costs for the new Itanium 2 processor line-up. The advantages are faster application performance, even more attractive cost of ownership and growing OS support (with the addition of OpenVMS)/many new applications. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 19:02:08 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <3554pgF4j0dtaU1@individual.net> In article <41ED57FA.8060903@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> In article <41EC88AA.6040702@tsoft-inc.com>, >> Dave Froble writes: > > >>>Clustering, as it was originally defined, shared everything, not fallover >>> >> >> Now you have two. But this one only affects a small handfull of users. > > > Are you saying that because VMS has a small market share? If not, then justify > your claim. It's this capability that allows VMS to scale to the job, and > adjust as job requirements change, all transparent to the applications. No, I merely meant that the number of people who actually need the clustering provided by VMS is very samll. Not even all VMS machines are in clusters. The biggest use I can think of for VMS style clustering is probably the least common use. Disaster survival. > Possibly your "small handful" actually do much more work than a very large > number of Unix users? I doubt that. But there is no way for either of us to prove just how much work either side is actually doing. (Is playing NeHack still considered work? :-) > > >>>DECnet >>> >> >> What is the advantage of DECnet over other networking protocols? There >> are lots of disadvantages. Oh yeah, that has been available for unix >> since the Ultrix days and while I have even used it, unless you are >> also running VMS (or PDP-11's :-) it really hasn't much use in the unix >> world. > > > Ah, I'd forgotten that there has been implementations of DECnet for many other > operating systems. Got me on that one. But, DECnet can be much more secure > than TCP/IP. That might be of use to the Unix world. Yeah, well if I disconnect the TCPIP machine from the rest of the world (like DECnet is by default) it's secure too. > > >>>Since I don't know Unix, some of the following may not be VMS only: >>> >>>Global sections >>> >> >> If this is Systemwide Logicals, unix can do that, but not as gracefully >> as VMS. > > > Shared sections of memory. Unix has had shared memory almost as long as I can remember. > > >>>Access to system calls outside of C >>> >> >> ?? Outside in what way? Any language can call any library. If you >> mean from a shell, I've never seen it done and because of the nature >> of the unix system calls I am not sure it would even make sense. > > > Sometime in the past there was a thread on something similar to this. I asked > how to perform some task, and the replies indicated that the only access was > through the use of a C library routine. Can't remember the details. Unless the compiler writer went to the trouble of making his language incompatable (ala RM Cobol) I can't see any reason why you coudln't call any system library from any compiler. > > >>>Logicals >>> >> >> Got them. Just don't call them the same thing. >> >> >>>Symbols >>> >> >> Aren't they really the same as Logicals? (I really don't know the >> difference.) > > > No, not the same thing. OK, I'll take your word for it. but without knowing the difference, I can't equate it to unix. > > >>>Mailboxes >>> >> >> Not sure of the real nature of VMS "Mailboxes". I get my email in a >> "mailbox", but VMS seems to have a different meaning. I think this >> is likely the same pty's or some combination of other methods of IPC. > > > A VMS mailbox is a inter process communication device. It can be sync or async. Hmmmm.... Unix has pty's, sockets, fifo's, pipes. >> PS. Hope it's warmer in your corner of the state than it is in mine!! >> > Down to 3 last night. :-( Even beat you there. We went below zero in most areas. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 19:17:08 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <3555lkF4j0dtaU2@individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >> In article <353d9eF4heoajU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >>> If a stream of bytes can do the job why force everybody to use something >>> else to satisfy that one person who might actually need it? >> >> There are very few real-world applications best modeled as a stream >> of bytes. > > No, but you can create a lot of student homework applications with > just a stream of bytes. Or singly-linked lists. Or other little > things you should avoid in real life. > > With all the emphasis on OOP in the last decade, you might think > somebody would realize data needs to be organized. http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/oopbad.htm http://www.dreamsongs.com/NewFiles/ObjectsHaveFailed.pdf Or not...... > Oh, maybe that's > why Oracle is pulling down so much dough. > > I know there are applications that need the full power of a DBMS. > But I also know large numbers of Oracle data bases serving the needs > met by a $2K ISAM package. And unix has both ISAM and DBMS available if needed. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 13:08:48 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <8D4T3oQz5TbQ@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <41ED57FA.8060903@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble writes: > Ah, I'd forgotten that there has been implementations of DECnet for many other > operating systems. Got me on that one. But, DECnet can be much more secure > than TCP/IP. DECnet _is_ more secure than TCP/IP. With TCP/IP any random user can set up a receptor to take unauthenticated inbound connections. With DECnet, that requires privilege (at least on VMS). Authentication is the _default_. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 19:21:55 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <3555ujF4j0dtaU3@individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <353d9eF4heoajU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> If a stream of bytes can do the job why force everybody to use something >> else to satisfy that one person who might actually need it? > > If a stream of bytes can do the job, VMS will provide you a stream of > bytes. > > Generally organization is not a bad thing, especially when it comes > to data. If a sequence of records is better at doing the job, UNIX > is out of luck. No, it's not. ISAM and DBMS are both available on unix. It's just not the default. And before you you bring up the additional cost of buying an additional commercial package. What is the difference between VMS and pretty much any unix, pricewise? Basicly, VMS provides it, wether you need it or not and makes you pay for it, wether you need it or not. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 19:31:45 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <3556h1F4j0dtaU4@individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <3IudnYo-79LDqnHcRVn-3g@igs.net>, "John Smith" writes: >> >> They get taught about 1.5 days of instruction in university about ISAM >> theory, do 2 coding exercise assignments worth 6% of their term mark, and >> that is....back to stream of bytes for the rest of their careers. > > I never hire anybody who can't learn on the job. And VMS is so easy > to learn. Matter of opinion. Experience here has been quite different. But then, one has to wonder how much of that is "mother duck syndrome". I knew a student from Marist in Poughkeepsie, NY who interned with my office at West Point a number of years ago. Couldn't handle Primos, Exec-8 or Unix. Couldn't understand how anyone could get anything done without VM/CMS and APL. (No smiley, I am not joking!!!) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:43:07 -0500 From: nobody Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <41ED66BE.F1CE734B@nobody.org> Larry Kilgallen wrote: > With TCP/IP any random user can set up a receptor to take unauthenticated > inbound connections. With DECnet, that requires privilege (at least on > VMS). Authentication is the _default_. Not on VMS. You need certain privileges to listen on a port < 1024. (or have your app defined in TCPIP Services). However, that still doesn't negate the fact that DECNET is more secure than TCPIP. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:54:11 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> In article <3IudnYo-79LDqnHcRVn-3g@igs.net>, "John Smith" >> writes: >>> >>> They get taught about 1.5 days of instruction in university about >>> ISAM theory, do 2 coding exercise assignments worth 6% of their >>> term mark, and that is....back to stream of bytes for the rest of >>> their careers. >> >> I never hire anybody who can't learn on the job. And VMS is so >> easy to learn. > > Matter of opinion. Experience here has been quite different. But > then, one has to wonder how much of that is "mother duck syndrome". > I knew a student from Marist in Poughkeepsie, NY who interned with my > office at West Point a number of years ago. Couldn't handle Primos, > Exec-8 or Unix. Couldn't understand how anyone could get anything > done without VM/CMS and APL. (No smiley, I am not joking!!!) I'll agree with the bit about APL. :-) ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 20:11:23 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <3558rbF4jdo8uU1@individual.net> In article <41EC90D0.4465F28D@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> Unix is just as much english as VMS is, just shorter. > > Unix is its own language. And it's had quite an impact on other OS. > > Consider CD. It has propagated to DOS and essentially is standard on VMS > because just about every system manager has a CD :== "SET DEF" in SYLOGIN.COM. And DIFF. How about ping? FTP? VMS is already infected. It will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. :-) > > and a "root account" is understood across platforms much more than the > "system account" would be. So there are a lot of Unix terminology that > has essentially become industry standard I wonder why that is? Especially considering that unix is so esoteric it wasn't even written for humans. > which allows people of > different OS religion to understand each other. > > But the more obscure Unix acronyms (that is what Unix commands are, > after all) aren't all understood across platforms. Name some. If you actually have any they are very likely limited to one vendor who was trying to make his version of unix proprietary (contrary to the unix philosophy) in order to lock customers in once they got used to it or wrote a bunch of local scripts. The common commands that must unix people core are (and have been) well defined for quite some time. (Another body that tried to redefine unix in it's own image and likeness was GNU. It was done for political reasons because of some grudge Stallman had with real Unix and luckily, it has not been totally successful.) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 14:24:23 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <3CYU$J8jvMKz@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <3554pgF4j0dtaU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > No, I merely meant that the number of people who actually need the > clustering provided by VMS is very samll. Not even all VMS machines > are in clusters. The biggest use I can think of for VMS style > clustering is probably the least common use. Disaster survival. Lots of people do not have _disaster_ tolerant clusters but have "minor incident tolerant" clusters. I have a common disk for source which is compiled on separate machines for VAX and Alpha. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 14:26:05 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <$j45Nf3zsBcb@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <3555ujF4j0dtaU3@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> Generally organization is not a bad thing, especially when it comes >> to data. If a sequence of records is better at doing the job, UNIX >> is out of luck. > > No, it's not. ISAM and DBMS are both available on unix. It's just not > the default. And before you you bring up the additional cost of buying > an additional commercial package. The cost is infinite, because as a software vendor I cannot choose what other pieces my customer chooses to buy. On VMS I can depend (heavily) on RMS and count on it being there on every customer system. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 14:30:21 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: In article <41ED66BE.F1CE734B@nobody.org>, nobody writes: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> With TCP/IP any random user can set up a receptor to take unauthenticated >> inbound connections. With DECnet, that requires privilege (at least on >> VMS). Authentication is the _default_. > > Not on VMS. You need certain privileges to listen on a port < 1024. (or > have your app defined in TCPIP Services). But no privilege to listen on a port with a higher number. I could conspire with others to all be listening on port 12345 and we could set up some supposedly (by our individual managers) valid business application that totally bypassed the organization's security rules. DECnet requires privilege to receive _any_ unauthenticated inbound connection. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:51:02 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <41ED76B4.682F0652@teksavvy.com> Larry Kilgallen wrote: > Lots of people do not have _disaster_ tolerant clusters but have > "minor incident tolerant" clusters. And you are forgetting clusters setup to support workstations. Decades ahead of what Microsoft was able to do with its file server. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 21:12:19 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <355cdiF4ik1fqU1@individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <41EC90D0.4465F28D@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei writes: >> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> Unix is just as much english as VMS is, just shorter. >> >> Unix is its own language. And it's had quite an impact on other OS. >> >> Consider CD. It has propagated to DOS and essentially is standard on VMS >> because just about every system manager has a CD :== "SET DEF" in SYLOGIN.COM. > > Not in any shop where I'm the system manager. No bias in your opinions about unix. > I've actually had one > (1), count them : ONE programmer who set up cd, pwd, ... for his VMS > account. > > All true VMS users know that sd is the symbol for some command file > that does nice things with set default. What happened to the idea of making the machine work for the users rather than making the users work for the machine? By the way, just like my comment on what I will install vs. what the VMS shop will install, this is a philosophical difference. I leave it to the public to decide which one is better for their users. > >> and a "root account" is understood across platforms much more than the >> "system account" would be. So there are a lot of Unix terminology that >> has essentially become industry standard which allows people of >> different OS religion to understand each other. > > My admin friend down the hall recognizes "admin account". Some OS > are even more prevalent than UNIX. Name one! > > But we've gotten far away from the OP's request to know the > differences between Solaris and VMS. We've done a lot of flame > baiting, but I still stand by my original answers even if Bill > doens't like them. > > Bill knows I think VMS is a superior OS, and I know VMS is a superior > OS, but he read a lot of what he knows about me into his > interpretation of my original response. I haven't seen anything that > actually factually refutes any one of my points. He just doesn't > like to hear me say them. I don't argue that there is anything wrong with VMS. The only thing that rankles me is when people post drivel about unix and claim it as gospel. Personally, I don't think either of them is "better" per se. There are jobs where each one is the right answer. It is only when things reach the point of saying there is only one true religion^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HOS and back it up with the same old, tired myths regarding unix. It only makes it worse that I have seen the same methods used against other aspects of modern life. I guess it's just part of the modern way like the current malleability of the english language. I am sure (and I certainly hope) that other readers hear realize there is no animosity between me and Dave or Bob or anyone else here. I don't know about them, but I enjoy the lively debates and I even learn stuff from them. (I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me the difference between Symbols and Logicals as I really thought they were pretty much the same except for the method of defining them.) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 21:25:13 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <355d5pF4hkianU1@individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <353do6F4heoajU3@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> So, I'm not human? Thanks a lot.... :-) > > I didn't say you're not human, I said UNIX wasn't designed to deal > with you. You had a bigger learning curve than you would have if it > was. > > No English speaker walking up to there first computer thinks "I need > to print a file, I'll try lpr." And a german speaker wouldn't think PRINT. Most people approach their first computer like it came from Mars anyway. I have been dealing with students who used both unix and VMS since before the Linux made unix a household word. Our students invariably learned unix faster. Became more productive on unix. And given both systems to use prefered to use unix over VMS. I know many people don't like anecdotal evidence, but I tend to believe what I see myself over what I get second hand. I, personally have been a user of VMS almost as long as unix and still am more productive using unix. I am one of the few supporters of VMS for academic use here (if I can ever get the power put in I have some real killer VAXen to turn the students loose on) and even have VMS at home. I still prefer unix and can do a lot more a lot faster there. That's just the way it is. But I will continue to use and support VMS anyway for the resons I stated in an earlier message. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 21:28:34 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <355dc2F4hkianU2@individual.net> In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > In article <41EC8C43.2080309@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble writes: >> Tom Linden wrote: >> >>> On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:25:53 -0500, Neil Rieck >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On a related note, I remember a discussion with my cousin (a "C" >>>> programmer >>>> at a big insurance company in Canada) a few years back; during a Heineken >>>> induce debate I stated "C isn't a high level language!" and his reply was >>>> "It is when you include the libraries!". He was right; the "C" language >>>> doesn't have i/o but it does when you include "stdio.h". Over all you >>>> can't >>>> knock "C" because it always seems to be the first thing ported to a new >>>> platform. The point of all this drivel is that even the language that >>>> UNIX >>>> is written in was developed with a minimalist approach. >>> >>> >>> There is more to a high-level language than that. How about strong typing, >>> lexical scoping and inheritance, on conditions, real I/O, just to name >>> a few. >>> How does he do decimal arithmetic (something insurance companies must >>> do) in C? >>> >> >> Simple. You write or acquire some library routines. No language/compiler is >> perfect. None of them provide for everything. > > Cobol, PL/1 and Ada all provide built-in decimal arithmetic. > Calling a library to do that from another language is less > natural an more prone to error. Don't let the guys at NAG hear you say that. I spent many years supporting users who used math routines from the NAG Library rather than the intrinsics in ForTran because they were better and in most cases faster too. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 15:40:53 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: In article <3555ujF4j0dtaU3@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > No, it's not. ISAM and DBMS are both available on unix. It's just not > the default. And before you you bring up the additional cost of buying > an additional commercial package. What is the difference between VMS > and pretty much any unix, pricewise? Basicly, VMS provides it, wether > you need it or not and makes you pay for it, wether you need it or not. In the real world, that's like selling soup without the bowl. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 15:42:17 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: In article <3556h1F4j0dtaU4@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > Couldn't handle Primos, Exec-8 or > Unix. Couldn't understand how anyone could get anything done without > VM/CMS and APL. (No smiley, I am not joking!!!) Wouldn't last around here. Those few are mild compared to what we'd throw at him. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 22:38:43 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <355hfjF4g6skfU1@individual.net> In article <8D4T3oQz5TbQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > In article <41ED57FA.8060903@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble writes: > >> Ah, I'd forgotten that there has been implementations of DECnet for many other >> operating systems. Got me on that one. But, DECnet can be much more secure >> than TCP/IP. > > DECnet _is_ more secure than TCP/IP. > > With TCP/IP any random user can set up a receptor to take unauthenticated > inbound connections. With DECnet, that requires privilege (at least on > VMS). Authentication is the _default_. If you are a serious business and you have to worry about your users seting up "a receptor to take unauthenticated inbound connections" you have a problem that no network protocol can fix. You, obviously, don't have to worry about hackers on the INTERNET if your running DECnet. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 22:43:57 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <355hpdF4g6skfU2@individual.net> In article <$j45Nf3zsBcb@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > In article <3555ujF4j0dtaU3@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > >>> Generally organization is not a bad thing, especially when it comes >>> to data. If a sequence of records is better at doing the job, UNIX >>> is out of luck. >> >> No, it's not. ISAM and DBMS are both available on unix. It's just not >> the default. And before you you bring up the additional cost of buying >> an additional commercial package. > > The cost is infinite, because as a software vendor I cannot choose what > other pieces my customer chooses to buy. On VMS I can depend (heavily) > on RMS and count on it being there on every customer system. You skipped my last part. They also pay for it, wether they need it or not. If you offer a commercial package that depends on another commercial package you don't expect to find on the customers machine, you license that package and provide it along with yours. How many people run packages that require Oracle? Banner, for example. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 22:46:17 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <355htpF4g6skfU3@individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <3555ujF4j0dtaU3@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> No, it's not. ISAM and DBMS are both available on unix. It's just not >> the default. And before you you bring up the additional cost of buying >> an additional commercial package. What is the difference between VMS >> and pretty much any unix, pricewise? Basicly, VMS provides it, wether >> you need it or not and makes you pay for it, wether you need it or not. > > In the real world, that's like selling soup without the bowl. Campbell's has been doing that since before I was born. The world seems to accept the practice just fine. How many people would be happy with Campbell's if they had to buy a bowl with every can of soup they bought just in case they didn't have one? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:53:59 -0500 From: "Neil Rieck" Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: "Neil Rieck" wrote in message news:jvYGd.8879$K03.384433@news20.bellglobal.com... > One big difference (if I'm not mistaken) is that OpenVMS supports > quota-based resource management while UNIX and Windows do not. This allows > processes in UNIX to do many weird things like spawn off a zillion > daughter processes or allocate a huge amount of memory etc. > > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, > Ontario, Canada. > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html > > As some people have already mentioned to me by email, modern flavors of UNIX do implement quota-based resource management. (most of my UNIX experience came from BSD 4.4 on PDP-11/44 back in the mid 1980's and lots of stuff has changed since then). It would be nice if someone in this newsgroup with experience on both UNIX and OpenVMS would set the record straight. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 23:09:27 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <355j97F4g6skfU4@individual.net> In article , "Neil Rieck" writes: > > "Neil Rieck" wrote in message > news:jvYGd.8879$K03.384433@news20.bellglobal.com... >> One big difference (if I'm not mistaken) is that OpenVMS supports >> quota-based resource management while UNIX and Windows do not. This allows >> processes in UNIX to do many weird things like spawn off a zillion >> daughter processes or allocate a huge amount of memory etc. >> > As some people have already mentioned to me by email, modern flavors of UNIX > do implement quota-based resource management. (most of my UNIX experience > came from BSD 4.4 on PDP-11/44 back in the mid 1980's and lots of stuff has > changed since then). You and most of the people here. > It would be nice if someone in this newsgroup with > experience on both UNIX and OpenVMS would set the record straight. I've been trying to do that for years but the same tired myths just keep popping back up. (Kind of reminds me of "Whack a Mole" :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:15:51 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: On 18 Jan 2005 21:28:34 GMT, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >> In article <41EC8C43.2080309@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble >> writes: >>> Tom Linden wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:25:53 -0500, Neil Rieck >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On a related note, I remember a discussion with my cousin (a "C" >>>>> programmer >>>>> at a big insurance company in Canada) a few years back; during a >>>>> Heineken >>>>> induce debate I stated "C isn't a high level language!" and his >>>>> reply was >>>>> "It is when you include the libraries!". He was right; the "C" >>>>> language >>>>> doesn't have i/o but it does when you include "stdio.h". Over all you >>>>> can't >>>>> knock "C" because it always seems to be the first thing ported to a >>>>> new >>>>> platform. The point of all this drivel is that even the language that >>>>> UNIX >>>>> is written in was developed with a minimalist approach. >>>> >>>> >>>> There is more to a high-level language than that. How about strong >>>> typing, >>>> lexical scoping and inheritance, on conditions, real I/O, just to name >>>> a few. >>>> How does he do decimal arithmetic (something insurance companies must >>>> do) in C? >>>> >>> >>> Simple. You write or acquire some library routines. No >>> language/compiler is >>> perfect. None of them provide for everything. >> >> Cobol, PL/1 and Ada all provide built-in decimal arithmetic. >> Calling a library to do that from another language is less >> natural an more prone to error. > > > Don't let the guys at NAG hear you say that. I spent many years > supporting > users who used math routines from the NAG Library rather than the > intrinsics > in ForTran because they were better and in most cases faster too. I think you are talking about two different things. Arithmetic is ALWAYS done better as intinsics - builtin functions in the compiler Scientific subroutines is another matter. It is not common to include confluent hypergeometric functions as intrinsics. > > bill > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:04:40 -0500 From: "Neil Rieck" Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: "Larry Kilgallen" wrote in message news:APqtG0CsE$6M@eisner.encompasserve.org... > In article , "Neil Rieck" > writes: >> [...snip...] >> 2. The open source movement (LINUX, Apache, ISC, OpenOffice, etc.) is my >> primary example and will probably be the only group of programmers >> capable >> of taking on Microsoft head to head. > > Open Source Software can be written in any language. Your statement is true. But I think you'd agree that the current "open source movement" is dominated by "C". p.s. I don't know why I forgot MySQL in my previous post Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 17:45:40 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <5ma6JBmy3AVC@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <355dc2F4hkianU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > In article , > Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >> In article <41EC8C43.2080309@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble writes: >>> Tom Linden wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:25:53 -0500, Neil Rieck >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On a related note, I remember a discussion with my cousin (a "C" >>>>> programmer >>>>> at a big insurance company in Canada) a few years back; during a Heineken >>>>> induce debate I stated "C isn't a high level language!" and his reply was >>>>> "It is when you include the libraries!". He was right; the "C" language >>>>> doesn't have i/o but it does when you include "stdio.h". Over all you >>>>> can't >>>>> knock "C" because it always seems to be the first thing ported to a new >>>>> platform. The point of all this drivel is that even the language that >>>>> UNIX >>>>> is written in was developed with a minimalist approach. >>>> >>>> >>>> There is more to a high-level language than that. How about strong typing, >>>> lexical scoping and inheritance, on conditions, real I/O, just to name >>>> a few. >>>> How does he do decimal arithmetic (something insurance companies must >>>> do) in C? >>>> >>> >>> Simple. You write or acquire some library routines. No language/compiler is >>> perfect. None of them provide for everything. >> >> Cobol, PL/1 and Ada all provide built-in decimal arithmetic. >> Calling a library to do that from another language is less >> natural an more prone to error. > > > Don't let the guys at NAG hear you say that. I spent many years supporting > users who used math routines from the NAG Library rather than the intrinsics > in ForTran because they were better and in most cases faster too. Certainly implementation quality varies, but there is nothing to naturally associate a higher quality implementation with a clunkier interface. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:59:39 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:53:59 -0500, Neil Rieck wrote: > > "Neil Rieck" wrote in message > news:jvYGd.8879$K03.384433@news20.bellglobal.com... >> One big difference (if I'm not mistaken) is that OpenVMS supports >> quota-based resource management while UNIX and Windows do not. This >> allows >> processes in UNIX to do many weird things like spawn off a zillion >> daughter processes or allocate a huge amount of memory etc. >> >> Neil Rieck >> Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, >> Ontario, Canada. >> http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html >> >> > As some people have already mentioned to me by email, modern flavors of > UNIX > do implement quota-based resource management. (most of my UNIX experience > came from BSD 4.4 on PDP-11/44 back in the mid 1980's and lots of stuff > has > changed since then). It would be nice if someone in this newsgroup with > experience on both UNIX and OpenVMS would set the record straight. ulimit(1) ulimit(1) NAME ulimit - Sets or reports a resource limit SYNOPSIS ulimit [-HSacdfmnstvw] [limit] STANDARDS Interfaces documented on this reference page conform to industry standards as follows: ulimit: XCU5.0, XBD5.0 Refer to the standards(5) reference page for more information about indus- try standards and associated tags. OPTIONS -H [Tru64 UNIX] The limits specified for the resources are hard limits. A hard limit cannot be increased once it is set. -S [Tru64 UNIX] The limits specified for the resources are soft limits. A soft limit can be increased up to the value of the hard limit. -a [Tru64 UNIX] Lists all of the current resource limits. The limit operand is not permitted with this option. -c limit [Tru64 UNIX] The limit operand specifies the number of 512-byte blocks for core dumps. -d limit [Tru64 UNIX] The limit operand specifies the number of Kilobytes for the data area. -f limit The limit operand specifies the number of 512-byte blocks for files written by child processes (files of any size can be read). -m limit [Tru64 UNIX] The limit operand specifies the number of Kilobytes for the size of physical memory. -n limit [Tru64 UNIX] The limit operand specifies the number of file descrip- tors. -s limit [Tru64 UNIX] The limit operand specifies the number of Kilobytes for the stack area. -t limit [Tru64 UNIX] The limit operand specifies the number of seconds to be used by each process. -v limit [Tru64 UNIX] The limit operand specifies the number of Kilobytes for virtual memory. This option is supported only if RLIMIT_VMEM has been defined in /usr/include/sys/resource.h at compile-time. -w limit [Tru64 UNIX] The limit operand specifies the number of Kilobytes for the swap area. This option is supported only if RLIMIT_SWAP has been defined in /usr/include/sys/resource.h at compile-time. OPERANDS limit If no options are specified, this is the number of 512 byte blocks to use as the new limit to file size. Otherwise, it is the limit applied to the resource indicatd by the option. [Tru64 UNIX] This operand is not allowed with the -a option. If this operand is omitted, the current limit for the indicated resource is reported. DESCRIPTION This command sets, or reports, the limit on the size of system resources, as indicated by the option. [Tru64 UNIX] If neither the -H option nor the -S option is specified, the limit applies to both hard and soft limits. If only the -a option is specified, soft limits are reported. If there is no limit on a resource, the limit is reported as unlimited. > > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, > Ontario, Canada. > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html > > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 17:43:49 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <0q6pjqA4eQDb@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <355cdiF4ik1fqU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> In article <41EC90D0.4465F28D@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei writes: >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> Unix is just as much english as VMS is, just shorter. >>> >>> Unix is its own language. And it's had quite an impact on other OS. >>> >>> Consider CD. It has propagated to DOS and essentially is standard on VMS >>> because just about every system manager has a CD :== "SET DEF" in SYLOGIN.COM. >> >> Not in any shop where I'm the system manager. > > No bias in your opinions about unix. Not in _my_ shop, due to my biases about _VMS_. SYS$SYLOGIN is undefined. >> My admin friend down the hall recognizes "admin account". Some OS >> are even more prevalent than UNIX. > > Name one! 1. Windows. 2. Linux. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 17:46:41 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: In article <355hfjF4g6skfU1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > In article <8D4T3oQz5TbQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >> In article <41ED57FA.8060903@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble writes: >> >>> Ah, I'd forgotten that there has been implementati