INFO-VAX Tue, 18 Jan 2005 Volume 2005 : Issue 36 Contents: Re: A couple of Itanic stories at www.openvms.org Re: A couple of Itanic stories at www.openvms.org Re: A couple of Itanic stories at www.openvms.org Re: A couple of Itanic stories at www.openvms.org Re: apache openvms download kit Re: apache openvms download kit Re: apache openvms download kit carly(tm) transcipt Error in C++ compiler Re: Error in C++ compiler Re: Error in C++ compiler Re: HP Press release about 18th event Re: HP Press release about 18th event HP service for a Puerto Rico Alpha, the saga ipod anyone? Re: ipod anyone? Re: ipod anyone? Re: ipod anyone? Re: ipod anyone? Re: ipod anyone? Re: Jan 18 Webcast Re: Jan 18 Webcast Re: Jan 18 Webcast Re: Jan 18 Webcast Re: Jan 18 Webcast Re: Jan 18 Webcast Re: Jan 18 Webcast Re: Jan 18 Webcast Re: Jan 18 Webcast Re: Jan 18 Webcast Re: Jan 18 Webcast Livermore transcript Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Marcello transcript RE: MemoryChannel VMS Cluster problem Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium OT: "Membership" in Usenet Groups (was Re: ipod anyone?) Re: Region coded VMS next? Re: Region coded VMS next? Re: Reorg Re: Solution Solution Re: Solution Re: Solution Re: Solution Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris) Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris) Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris) Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris) Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Re: vms versus solaris Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast inifinite loop Re: Webcast Q+A session transcript - VMS related (mostly) Webcast Q+A session transcript - VMS related (mostly) [Ann] Automatically generate PDF on VMS with PDFlib ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:35:17 GMT From: John Reagan Subject: Re: A couple of Itanic stories at www.openvms.org Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > John Smith wrote: > >>http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=05/01/17/2467177 > > > Two interesting bits in that article: > > New compilers are responsible for a lot of improved performance for the > new systems. Will those new compilers be on VMS 8.2 for IA64 ? Or is VMS > still stuck with Merced era compilers ? (That whose "donate compilers to > Intel" thing has created a hell of a lot of confusion for VMS). > All of the compilers that will ship with OpenVMS I64 V8.2 are tuned for Itanium 2 out of the box. If you poke around, you'll find various compilers with /ARCHITECTURE=MERCED qualifiers to revert to the Merced tuning, but that setting isn't supported since OpenVMS I64 itself isn't supporting any Merced-based platforms. -- John Reagan HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 10:02:56 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: A couple of Itanic stories at www.openvms.org Message-ID: In article <6VWGd.5987$vz4.3769@news.cpqcorp.net>, "FredK" writes: > VMS set the plan, set the schedule, and the strategy for what > we are supporting. Not Carly. The first systems needed are > smaller systems, to get things moving and ported. The GS1280 > is still a formidable system today, so there isn't a critical need > for a SuperDome. In fact, the customers made it quite clear to Rich Marcelo that they wanted small, cheap systems to start out on. Developers in particular. And where else do apps come from to sell those superdomes? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:58:26 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: A couple of Itanic stories at www.openvms.org Message-ID: <41ED4E3C.2A0C3804@teksavvy.com> John Reagan wrote: > > New compilers are responsible for a lot of improved performance for the > > new systems. > All of the compilers that will ship with OpenVMS I64 V8.2 are tuned for > Itanium 2 out of the box. Ok, but HP said that a good part of performance improvements announced today come from new compilers for Itanium-2. Does VMS have these new compilers, or the older Itanium2 compilers ? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:22:40 GMT From: John Reagan Subject: Re: A couple of Itanic stories at www.openvms.org Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > John Reagan wrote: > >>>New compilers are responsible for a lot of improved performance for the >>>new systems. > > >>All of the compilers that will ship with OpenVMS I64 V8.2 are tuned for >>Itanium 2 out of the box. > > > > Ok, but HP said that a good part of performance improvements announced > today come from new compilers for Itanium-2. Does VMS have these new > compilers, or the older Itanium2 compilers ? I don't know the context of today's announcement. An "improvement" is comparing some "older" platform to a "newer" platform. What was the points of comparison? I also don't know how to answer your "old" vs "new" compilers as the compilers we're shipping is the first on the OpenVMS I64 platform. They are the same compilers we've been using for E8.0, E8,1 and now V8.2. We didn't decide at the last minute to whip up a bunch of new compilers for no good reason. The compilers have been undergoing performance improvements from E8.0 to E8.1 and now V8.2. We have additional performance work planned as well. -- John Reagan HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 01:36:53 -0800 From: mb301@hotmail.com Subject: Re: apache openvms download kit Message-ID: <1106041012.988708.268250@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Nigel Barker wrote: > On 17 Jan 2005 06:44:33 -0800, mb301@hotmail.com wrote: > > >Please could someone tell me the URL of the Download kit is for apache? > >I have openvms 7.2-2 do I need a license? > > Here you are. http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/apache/csws.html > Secure Web Server (based on Apache) is licensed & supported as part of the base > OS so no need for any extra license. > > -- > Nigel Barker > Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur mmmm, That does say:- Version 2.0 requires OpenVMS Version 7.3-1 or higher!!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:04:10 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jean-Fran=E7ois_Pi=E9ronne?= Subject: Re: apache openvms download kit Message-ID: <41ecdf1c$0$19436$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr> > Nigel Barker wrote: > >>On 17 Jan 2005 06:44:33 -0800, mb301@hotmail.com wrote: >> >> >>>Please could someone tell me the URL of the Download kit is for > > apache? > >>>I have openvms 7.2-2 do I need a license? >> >>Here you are. > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/apache/csws.html > >>Secure Web Server (based on Apache) is licensed & supported as part > > of the base > >>OS so no need for any extra license. >> >>-- >>Nigel Barker >>Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur > > > mmmm, > That does say:- > Version 2.0 requires OpenVMS Version 7.3-1 or higher!!! > And worse the new HP SSL Version 1.2 for OpenVMS require 7.3-2 on alpha. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:17:19 GMT From: Nigel Barker Subject: Re: apache openvms download kit Message-ID: On 18 Jan 2005 01:36:53 -0800, mb301@hotmail.com wrote: > >Nigel Barker wrote: >> On 17 Jan 2005 06:44:33 -0800, mb301@hotmail.com wrote: >> >> >Please could someone tell me the URL of the Download kit is for >apache? >> >I have openvms 7.2-2 do I need a license? >> >> Here you are. >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/apache/csws.html >> Secure Web Server (based on Apache) is licensed & supported as part >of the base >> OS so no need for any extra license. >> >> -- >> Nigel Barker >> Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur > >mmmm, >That does say:- > Version 2.0 requires OpenVMS Version 7.3-1 or higher!!! Version 1.3 requires VMS 7.2-2. There is a link on that page. Here is a link to a matrix of supported versions of VMS, SWS plus all the associated products e.g. TCP/IP Services, MOD_PERL etc http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/apache/csws_versions.html -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:33:46 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: carly(tm) transcipt Message-ID: No VMS for you. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:45:23 +0100 From: "Robert Trawiński" Subject: Error in C++ compiler Message-ID: Simple CXX file: #include void func(void) { string p2 = "Part 2"; throw string("Part 1") + p2; } When I compile it I see compiler dump information: %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtual address=000000000000 0004, PC=000000000042D008, PS=0000001B %TRACE-F-TRACEBACK, symbolic stack dump follows image module routine line rel PC abs PC CXX$COMPILER ME_EXPR me_do_argument 139577 0000000000005C68 000000000042D008 CXX$COMPILER ME_EXPR me_generate_call 139263 0000000000004E20 000000000042C1C0 CXX$COMPILER ME_EXPR walk_operation_expression 141696 000000000000A844 0000000000431BE4 CXX$COMPILER ME_EXPR walk_expression 140533 00000000000086B0 000000000042FA50 CXX$COMPILER ME_EXPR walk_operation_expression 141788 000000000000AC0C 0000000000431FAC CXX$COMPILER ME_EXPR walk_expression 140533 00000000000086B0 000000000042FA50 CXX$COMPILER ME_EXPR walk_operation_expression 141801 000000000000AC6C 000000000043200C CXX$COMPILER ME_EXPR walk_expression 140533 00000000000086B0 000000000042FA50 CXX$COMPILER ME_STMT walk_statement 140676 0000000000004214 00000000004454C4 CXX$COMPILER ME_STMT walk_statement_list 136785 0000000000000664 0000000000441914 CXX$COMPILER ME_STMT walk_block_statement 139265 00000000000027EC 0000000000443A9C CXX$COMPILER ME_STMT walk_statement 140726 00000000000049A8 0000000000445C58 CXX$COMPILER ME_FUNC walk_routine 144135 000000000000285C 0000000000434FCC CXX$COMPILER ME walk_scope_routines 139830 00000000000011DC 000000000041956C CXX$COMPILER ME me_driver 136270 00000000000007B4 0000000000418B44 CXX$COMPILER COMPILE dec_exx_back_end_one_o_file 170688 0000000000001AD8 00000000003F0DB8 CXX$COMPILER COMPILE dec_exx_back_end 169923 0000000000001314 00000000003F05F4 CXX$COMPILER CFE edg_main 55960 0000000000000214 000000000044F464 CXX$COMPILER COMPILE gem_xx_compile 171001 0000000000002214 00000000003F14F4 CXX$COMPILER GEM_CP_VMS GEM_CP_MAIN 2603 00000000000018CC 0000000000684CAC CXX$COMPILER 0 0000000000994434 0000000000994434 0 FFFFFFFF80267ED4 FFFFFFFF80267ED4 $ CXX/VERSION Compaq C++ V6.5-004 for OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-2 All patches on VMS. How can I send information about this error to HP engineering? A propos. Workaround is: throw string(string("Part 1") + p2); Please don't say it is not elegent to throw string as an exception (it's not my code). Robert ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 07:21:13 -0600 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: Re: Error in C++ compiler Message-ID: In article , "Robert Trawiński" wrote: > Simple CXX file: > > #include > > void func(void) > { > string p2 = "Part 2"; > > throw string("Part 1") + p2; > } > > When I compile it I see compiler dump information: > > > %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtual > address=000000000000 snip > > $ CXX/VERSION > Compaq C++ V6.5-004 for OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-2 The compiler crash does not occur with $ cxx/version Compaq C++ V6.5-039 for OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-1 so it appears the problem has already been fixed and you just need to get your compiler up to the latest ECO level. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 07:51:33 -0800 From: uli_bellgardt@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Error in C++ compiler Message-ID: <1106063493.424404.191060@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Robert Trawi=F1ski wrote: > Simple CXX file: > > #include > > void func(void) > { > string p2 =3D "Part 2"; > > throw string("Part 1") + p2; > } > > When I compile it I see compiler dump information: > >[...] > All patches on VMS. > You may want to download the patch named cxxae01065 (or a newer one, if available). While I could reproduce the compiler crash with CXX V6.5-004, the newer CXX V6.5-048 (this is the one I got with the mentioned patch)translates the code without problem. Regards, -Uli ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:14:23 GMT From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: HP Press release about 18th event Message-ID: In article <41EC9517.8050607@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble wrote: >John Smith wrote: > >> Keith Parris wrote: >> >>>JF Mezei wrote: >>> >>>> HP (NYSE:HPQ)(Nasdaq:HPQ) today announced that >>>> in its fiscal year 2004 the company surpassed >>>> $1 billion in sales of HP Integrity >>>> server-related solutions, marking a milestone >>>> in the growing popularity of the servers as a >>>> leading choice for business' most demanding IT >>>> workloads. >>>> >>>This is quite a significant number. And it can only get better with >>>the VMS announcement tomorrow. >>> >>> > (so much about not being allowed to disclose number prior to >>>quarterly numbers) >>> >>>Note that this data covers fiscal year 2004. What you aren't hearing >>>about here is how much has been sold in Q1FY2005. That would be data >>>covered by the "quiet period". >>> >> >> >> "surpassed $1 billion in sales of HP Integrity server-*related* solutions, >> marking a milestone in the growing popularity of the servers as a leading >> choice for business' most demanding IT workloads. ... >My only question is how much of the "software, storage, and services" was >purchased for Alphas? Evidently none of it, at least as I understand the phrase "Integrity server-related". Look out! There's another chunk of sky falling, and it's headed our way! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 00:59:32 +0800 From: prep@prep.synonet.com Subject: Re: HP Press release about 18th event Message-ID: <87y8eqr7uz.fsf@prep.synonet.com> JF Mezei writes: > John Smith wrote: >> "surpassed $1 billion in sales of HP Integrity server-*related* solutions, > Remember that another article explained this quite well. They lumped in > lots of stuff including all storage related sales. > (A bit like improving the PC business by including printers). That's an efficiency thing; the red ink does not have to travel as far. Anyone remember what the previous brag numbers for SW kit was? -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 07:32:14 -0800 From: jordan@ccs4vms.com Subject: HP service for a Puerto Rico Alpha, the saga Message-ID: <1106062334.401574.142510@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Early last year we started the ball rolling to place a DS10 at a customer in Puerto Rico under a support contract; the system was (then) still under warranty (a 36 month Carepaq). Working through the tiered distributor we originally bought the system from (and taking a couple of months) we received final quotes and sent a PO; they submitted it to HP. Even though the quotes had come from HP in the first place (and the long delays were due to waiting for their responses to the distributor), we were then told that HP USA could not provide the contract after all (they had the info about the system location from the beginning and not said a word), and to talk to HP Puerto Rico directly. It took several weeks to get someone in Puerto Rico to respond. Voicemail boxes were always full, email was not responded to. Copies of the US quotes were sent (by request) then never responded to. Our person eventually managed to reach a manager at HP Puerto Rico. Nearly 2 months after starting with Puerto Rico, we finally received a quote. A PO was sent in the next day (beginning of December). To date, no response has been received to the PO or to followup emails. Can't leave voice mail as the boxes are always full. We received one response early this month saying they would get back to us 'shortly'. They haven't, and further contacts (or attempts: voicemail) have resulted in the same lack of response. Our contracts person has around 80-90 hours into this fiasco since last May. We have posted this tale of woe, but with names and dates included, to Ms. Fiorina's 'Tell Carly' page. Although I never got a response to the last one I sent (about HP increasing the VMS license transfer fee from $300 to $400), I guess its worth a try. Although this may get someone's cage rattled and get things rolling again, I'd still like to know if anyone has either a usable contact for this situation in the HP Puerto Rico service organization, or any alternatives that can provide system/hardware support _ONSITE_ for a DS10 there. We CANNOT use a parts service, and we can, if needed, live without VMS software support. Thanks for any info. Rich CCS ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 01:37:31 -0800 From: andrew01@gmail.com Subject: ipod anyone? Message-ID: <1106041051.244288.138560@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> I've been debating whether to do this for a while now, but in the end I decided to tidery the free ipods offer. I have been reading a lot of articles and what not over the internet and to me it seems legitimate. There are also some pretty good offers also. I got a free $10 Amazon Gift Voucher out of mine, now I think you can get a $20 Lowes voucher. They also have some pretty good Blockbuster ones that seem like good deals. I think its worth trying, there is nothing you can lose.) Just wanted to see if anyone knew about it. Here's my link if you feel like trying it out: just copy and past the link into the browser, you need to get the whole thing Thank you. any help is greatly appreciated. Andrew (p.s. Im not just some random guy that came here to post my link, I have actually looked around on this forum before. I just became a member recently though. ) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:26:11 GMT From: dame_zumari@yahoo.com (Louise Bremner) Subject: Re: ipod anyone? Message-ID: <1gqln8u.1yehb9iynzhxcN%dame_zumari@yahoo.com> wrote: > (p.s. Im not just some random guy that came here to post my link, I > have actually looked around on this forum before. I just became a > member recently though. ) Um... Which "forum"? Note that you cross-posted to five very different newsgroups. ________________________________________________________________________ Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com) If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address! ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 05:03:14 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: ipod anyone? Message-ID: <2Hg2hUiwGn6X@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <1106041051.244288.138560@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, andrew01@gmail.com writes: > (p.s. Im not just some random guy that came here to post my link, I > have actually looked around on this forum before. I just became a > member recently though. ) So based on that familiarity with comp.os.vms, I presume you know that I am the King of England. (For those who don't check headers, this spammer cross-posted to: Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv.uk.coronation-st,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.site-des ign,rec.games.go,comp.os.vms,rec.models.railroad I urge everyone to report him to: Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:07:20 +0000 From: JPG Subject: Re: ipod anyone? Message-ID: On 18 Jan 2005 01:37:31 -0800, andrew01@gmail.com wrote: >(p.s. Im not just some random guy that came here to post my link, I >have actually looked around on this forum before. I just became a >member recently though. ) One doesn't become a "member" of a newsgroup, liar. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:09:26 GMT From: "Dom" Subject: Re: ipod anyone? Message-ID: If you click on the link it says 'You are currently being referred by andrew01@gmail.com' should we report him to gmail too??? or post to him telling him he will lose his account unless he apologies? lol Domestos ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:00:09 GMT From: Aidan Karley Subject: Re: ipod anyone? Message-ID: In article <1gqln8u.1yehb9iynzhxcN%dame_zumari@yahoo.com>, Louise Bremner wrote: > Note that you cross-posted to five very different newsgroups. > In itself a high-liklihood indicator of a random spammer. -- Aidan Karley, Aberdeen, Scotland, Location: 57°10'11" N, 02°08'43" W (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:25:54 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast Message-ID: <00A3E0AF.06F62078@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <41EC7F96.5160FA0A@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: >Kenneth Farmer wrote: >> >> "JF Mezei" wrote in message >> news:41EC35E7.EB15E7C2@teksavvy.com... >> > Soem, additional information available at: >> > >> > http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press_kits/2005/integrity/ >> > >> > Webcast is 1 hour long, with 30 minutes of presentations starting at >> > 08:30 PT, and the chat with Ann Livermore starting at 09:PT. >> >> Look at the top of that page! >> >> "HP recommends Microsoft Windows XP Professional" >> >> Argh! > >....and you expected - what? Mozilla on VMS + DECwindows? I expected nothing less from a PeeCee company. What I find laughable is the juxtaposition of the word Professional with Micro$oft anything. Can you really take product to be a serious Professional product when silly little characters like the paperclip man or a little puppy pop up on the display with so called "helpful hints"? It probably wouldn't hurt them to at least remove the Micro$oft specific shit from their web pages. Then I could view these presentations on my Powerbook. Perhaps now that HP is reselling the best of class portable digital music players -- the iPod -- they might begin to recognise that there is an OS that is far more professional than anything miniscule-n- flaccid corporation could ever hope to produce coming from the same com- pany providing them iPods. -- http://www.ProvN.com for the *best* OpenVMS system security solutions that others only claim to be. -- Cyber-Terrorism (si'-ber tayr'-or-iz-em) n.: The release of, the sale of, or the use of any Micro$oft software product! -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 08:24:49 -0800 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast Message-ID: <1106065489.560235.32400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <41EC7F96.5160FA0A@comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: > >Kenneth Farmer wrote: > >> > >> "JF Mezei" wrote in message > >> news:41EC35E7.EB15E7C2@teksavvy.com... > >> > Soem, additional information available at: > >> > > >> > http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press_kits/2005/integrity/ > >> > > >> > Webcast is 1 hour long, with 30 minutes of presentations starting at > >> > 08:30 PT, and the chat with Ann Livermore starting at 09:PT. > >> > >> Look at the top of that page! > >> > >> "HP recommends Microsoft Windows XP Professional" > >> > >> Argh! You mean: AAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! Let's try and be a little more accurate! > > > >....and you expected - what? Mozilla on VMS + DECwindows? > > I expected nothing less from a PeeCee company. What I find laughable is > the juxtaposition of the word Professional with Micro$oft anything. Can Agreed! > you really take product to be a serious Professional product when silly > little characters like the paperclip man or a little puppy pop up on the > display with so called "helpful hints"? I wouldn't want the puppy or any other cute helper, but I actually kind of like paper clip guy. Now that I have my taskbar on the right edge of the screen, paper clip guy actually stays out of the way for a change! > It probably wouldn't hurt them to at least remove the Micro$oft specific > shit from their web pages. Then I could view these presentations on my > Powerbook. Perhaps now that HP is reselling the best of class portable Agreed! No excuse for this! > digital music players -- the iPod -- they might begin to recognise that > there is an OS that is far more professional than anything miniscule-n- > flaccid corporation could ever hope to produce coming from the same com- > pany providing them iPods. We can only hope, but I am not too hopeful. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:12:19 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast Message-ID: Tom Linden wrote: > I just signed up for it and there seems to be a problem with the > web page. I tried with IE6 as well as Opera, and same thing 11:10 am, morning of conference http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/landing.html?jumpid=go/agility Either their server is overloaded or they don't have enough bandwidth...taking forever to get launched ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 10:14:21 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast Message-ID: In article , "Kenneth Farmer" writes: > > Look at the top of that page! > > "HP recommends Microsoft Windows XP Professional" > > Argh! I lost the URL and found the page starting from the VMS home page (www/openvms.compaq.com). At least though that path I was able to get to the webcast page without incurring the above insult. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 10:47:51 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article , "Kenneth Farmer" writes: >> >> Look at the top of that page! >> >> "HP recommends Microsoft Windows XP Professional" >> >> Argh! > > I lost the URL and found the page starting from the VMS home page > (www/openvms.compaq.com). At least though that path I was able to > get to the webcast page without incurring the above insult. Sue Skonetski sent mail this morning with the URL: http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/landing.html?jumpid=go/agility but that page is still sitting there (15 minutes after the scheduled start) with the same 00:00:00:00 it has had all week. I guess it _does_ take a BillyBox to work. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:59:22 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast Message-ID: <1106066931.6dcb78a65a8ca80ebca54cfba2934622@teranews> Bob Koehler wrote: > I lost the URL and found the page starting from the VMS home page > (www/openvms.compaq.com). At least though that path I was able to > get to the webcast page without incurring the above insult. Same here. Am getting a pre=recorded flash presentation where Carly so far has said absolutely nothing although she's been babbling for over 15 minutes in what seems to be an infinite loop with broken words due to Flash being not-quite-ready-for-prime-time for streaming abnd buffering. Talks abouut RFID devices but nothing about anything new in the IA64 product line. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:08:46 +0000 (UTC) From: hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast Message-ID: In article <1106066931.6dcb78a65a8ca80ebca54cfba2934622@teranews>, JF Mezei writes: !Bob Koehler wrote: !> I lost the URL and found the page starting from the VMS home page !> (www/openvms.compaq.com). At least though that path I was able to !> get to the webcast page without incurring the above insult. ! !Same here. Am getting a pre=recorded flash presentation where Carly so !far has said absolutely nothing although she's been babbling for over 15 !minutes in what seems to be an infinite loop with broken words due to !Flash being not-quite-ready-for-prime-time for streaming abnd buffering. !Talks abouut RFID devices but nothing about anything new in the IA64 !product line. I will add here that I have obtained the transcript to carly's "loop", and find that she only gets 2/3ds of the way through her talk before she starts again from the top (Mozilla Firefox on W2K). I was able to obtain a "feedback" page, where I let them know what was happening, along with a comment - if this is the best example of HP "technology", I will not reccommend that technology to me employers/customers. The transcripts for Ann's and Rich's "talks" are also available, although we will never get to "see" them. Another example of "stealth marketing"? Ann's chat is still going in another window, however...folks are asking a number of VMS and Alpha-related questions...good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:05:32 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast Message-ID: <41ED4FE5.2A1772D@teksavvy.com> From the questions and answers period: Q: It seems that HP is quite satified with the installed base of OpenVMS. But, are you looking for *NEW* customers, too? If so, what are your arguments to convince a new customer to stay off from Windows and Linux/Unix? Ann Livermore (A): What we find today is that it is difficult to convince new customers to adopt an operating environment that they do not view as an industry standard. That makes it hard for HP to attract lots of new customers to OpenVMS. Our greatest sales success comes from those customers who already have OpenVMS and choose to expand into new application areas. If you have suggestions for us, we would love to hear them! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:03:44 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast Message-ID: <41ED4F7A.97B19DC8@teksavvy.com> Larry Kilgallen wrote: > http://h10054.www1.hp.com/ent_event/landing.html?jumpid=go/agility > > but that page is still sitting there (15 minutes after the scheduled > start) with the same 00:00:00:00 it has had all week. > > I guess it _does_ take a BillyBox to work. If you activate javascript, and have a dece,ktlty recent version of Flash plugin, you will see some form of a presentation. Pre-recorded and looping. Proves Carly would make a good politician since she can talk forever and say absolutely nothing. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:19:25 +0000 (UTC) From: hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast Message-ID: In article <41ED4FE5.2A1772D@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei writes: !From the questions and answers period: ! !Q: It seems that HP is quite !satified with the installed base of !OpenVMS. But, are you looking for !*NEW* customers, too? If so, !what are your arguments to !convince a new customer to stay !off from Windows and !Linux/Unix? ! !Ann Livermore (A): What we !find today is that it is difficult to !convince new customers to adopt !an operating environment that !they do not view as an industry !standard. That makes it hard for !HP to attract lots of new !customers to OpenVMS. Our !greatest sales success comes !from those customers who !already have OpenVMS and choose !to expand into new application !areas. If you have suggestions for !us, we would love to hear them! With everybody's "permission", I'd like to post the "complete" chat transcript (VMS Q&A_only_), in the same spirit that "John Smith" posted the Ann Livermore and Rich Marcello transcripts. This will take a little while, but I think it's the "fairest" way to see the information provided. Agreed? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:25:20 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Jan 18 Webcast Message-ID: Bradford J. Hamilton wrote: > In article <41ED4FE5.2A1772D@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei > writes: !From the questions and > answers period: ! > !Q: It seems that HP is quite > !satified with the installed base of > !OpenVMS. But, are you looking for > !*NEW* customers, too? If so, > !what are your arguments to > !convince a new customer to stay > !off from Windows and > !Linux/Unix? > ! > !Ann Livermore (A): What we > !find today is that it is difficult to > !convince new customers to adopt > !an operating environment that > !they do not view as an industry > !standard. That makes it hard for > !HP to attract lots of new > !customers to OpenVMS. Our > !greatest sales success comes > !from those customers who > !already have OpenVMS and choose > !to expand into new application > !areas. If you have suggestions for > !us, we would love to hear them! > > With everybody's "permission", I'd like to post the "complete" chat > transcript (VMS Q&A_only_), in the same spirit that "John Smith" > posted the Ann Livermore > and Rich Marcello transcripts. > > This will take a little while, but I think it's the "fairest" way to > see the > information provided. Agreed? Ken Farmer is posting it on www.openvms.org as we speak....along with some questions that were asked and not answered. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:33:29 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Livermore transcript Message-ID: Ann Livermore EVP, Technology Solutions Group HP Integrity: For your most demanding workload (video transcript) "Thank you, Carly. I'd like to take just a few minutes to tell you about the momentum Integrity servers have generated in the marketplace. And then, I'll explain two important announcements we are making today. First, let's look at momentum. At HP, we designed our Integrity servers to be the trusted platform for your most demanding workloads. The Integrity family ranges from 2-way servers at the low end to powerful 128-way servers at the high end. We also developed sophisticated management and virtualization solutions that make HP Integrity servers easier to manage and that reduce operating costs. And development is on-going with key technology partners, such as Intel and Microsoft. Customers have heard us and have embraced our Integrity line. One reason is that over 3,000 applications run on Integrity servers. This includes key applications from BEA Systems, Microsoft, Oracle, SAP, SAS and many others. Among customers with SAP environments, Integrity servers are especially popular. In 180 days, 180 customers chose Integrity servers as the foundation for their SAP solution. Plus, the largest single instance of SAP runs on Integrity. Now we are building on this momentum with two announcements. First, our entire Integrity product line now incorporates Intel's newly enhanced Itanium® 2 9M processor. As a result, these new HP Integrity systems deliver up to 25% better performance compared with their predecessors. More than just numbers from a lab, HP Integrity servers produce business results. For example, HP and Oracle outperform IBM DB2 on important data warehousing benchmarks like TPC-H. These types of superior benchmarks continue across diverse workloads.across multiple servers.and across multiple operating systems. The Integrity family's performance enables it to handle your most demanding workloads... including Enterprise Resource Planning ... Online Transaction Processing ... Business Intelligence... and High Performance Technical Computing. All of which help to produce success for HP customers." "The 64-bit Itanium architecture running HP-UX enables us to run simulation models 20-30 times faster than we could before. This means that a simulation that would have taken 5 days to do before, we can now do in a single day." Martin Allen, IS National Coordinator, Airbus "We were able to cut our processing time by one half, from 8 hours a day to 4 hours a day. Now we are able to capture business processing on a 24-hour clock, and we were able to make changes in our business operating hours primarily because we transitioned to the Integrity server." Jim Ratchford, Director IT Infrastructure, Boeing Employees'Credit Union "From a performance perspective we have received at least a five-fold increase in speed, and we even believe that will increase." Tim Eitel, CIO, Raymond James Financial Ann Livermore cont' - "Of course this improved productivity only counts if it is matched with excellent uptime and innovative partnership." "The reason we chose the HP Itanium 2-based product is multiple... flexibility... scalability... power... reliability." Tim Eitel, CIO, Raymond James Financial "This partnership with HP is offering us the possibility to show our customers that we are innovating not only just in the hardware of our product, that is the car, but also in terms of service and in terms of clear information to them." Claudio San Pedro, Vice President, Business Unit, Fiat Ann Livermore cont' - "And the list continues to grow every day. Carly also talked about agility. . . about how it is the new imperative since you must now deploy services faster...create new revenue streams... and respond in a fast-moving, intensely competitive marketplace. Today's second announcement addresses these needs with significant enhancements to the HP Virtual Server Environment. This multi-OS Virtual Server Environment consists of a pool of dynamically sizeable virtual servers ... each of which can grow or shrink based on service level objectives and business needs. From a business point of view, the unique integration of virtualization with high availability and utility pricing delivers powerful benefits. For instance, you can double your resource utilization ... maintain continuous service levels in the event of unexpected downtime ...and pay only for the computing you actually use. So far you've heard how HP Integrity servers are the trusted choice for your most demanding workloads.and how Integrity servers deliver breakthrough value within and beyond the system. Now Rich Marcello will explain how we are expanding the list of operating systems you can run on Integrity servers....and how we are also expanding the solutions ecosystem around our Integrity servers." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:06:42 GMT From: "FredK" Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Message-ID: Come on. Its winter, the election is over, and Bill must have time on his hands. I'm just tossing him grapefruits. Trust me, he enjoys it. wrote in message news:87mzv6r7je.fsf@prep.synonet.com... > "FredK" writes: > > > Would you like some whine with your cheese? > > Give it away Fred, this petty sniping does not become you, or the > work you have done. > > -- > Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., > +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. > West Australia 6076 > comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. > EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 01:06:29 +0800 From: prep@prep.synonet.com Subject: Re: Marcello predicts 500% perfomance improvement Message-ID: <87mzv6r7je.fsf@prep.synonet.com> "FredK" writes: > Would you like some whine with your cheese? Give it away Fred, this petty sniping does not become you, or the work you have done. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:21:22 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Marcello transcript Message-ID: Rich Marcello Sr. VP & GM, Business Critical Servers Product Line Confidence you can count on (video transcript) When you invest in the systems that form the foundation of your infrastructure, you need the peace of mind to know that the value of your investments will grow as your needs grow. HP Integrity servers support a broad selection of market-leading operating environments. For instance, HP Integrity servers running HP-UX 11i v2 have experienced triple digit growth year over year. HP Integrity servers deliver the leading multi-processor price/performance of any Linux platform in the world. And, HP Integrity servers running Windows deliver the highest SQL database scalable performance in the world. With our third announcement for today, the list of available operating environments just got longer, as we are releasing OpenVMS version 8.2 on Integrity. The production release of OpenVMS 8.2 not only provides you with outstanding price/performance, reduces total cost of ownership and offers investment protection for OpenVMS operating environments, but also ensures greater adaptability and flexibility for IT environments in general. As you will learn when reviewing the product information on this event site, there are new operating system capabilities, including. - Enhanced virtualization and security features for HP-UX 11i v2. - Availability of new utility pricing options, manageability and clustering capabilities for disaster recovery on Windows. - As well as enhanced virtualization and high availability capabilities on Linux. While the server platform itself is important, the quality of the ecosystem surrounding it is also critical to meeting your business needs. With this in mind, the Integrity ecosystem offers an array of solutions and applications developed with a growing list of independent software and hardware vendors. As mentioned earlier, there are now over 3,000 applications available for HP Integrity servers today, which dwarfs the 200 or so available for IBM's POWER5. And, this work is expanding through worldwide events such as the HP/Intel Developer Forums and HP, Microsoft and Intel 'Route 64' hands-on labs. In conjunction with servers, HP also provides a powerful portfolio of storage and software products that are designed to work together to save you time and money, and to produce even better results. HP is renowned for its collaborative approach to design and build an agile infrastructure. Here's what a couple of our customers had to say. "The migration of our AlphaServers to Integrity servers running Oracle9i was a non-event. The only thing we wanted people to notice was the greater availability and greater performance, and that's what it did for us." Scott Wolfe, IT Enterprise Architect, Boeing Employees'Credit Union "What we're finding with the HP Integrity solution, is that it is basically an 'off-the-shelf' solution, so the total cost of ownership comes down. Basically this means we can do more for less." Martin Allen, IS National Coordinator, Airbus "When we turned on the Integrity system, nobody noticed. At the end of the business day, they said 'Wow.' Integrity met our needs and exceeded our expectations, and it has not skipped a beat." Jim Ratchford, Director IT Infrastructure, Boeing Employees'Credit Union The HP Integrity server ecosystem also includes a powerful set of complimentary and fee-based services to either augment or replace your own internal capabilities. In addition to HP's vertical industry expertise and practices, a few of the most popular services include server consolidation, business continuity and agility assessments. Highly adaptable finance offerings are another part of the HP Integrity ecosystem. From a straight purchase.or leasing.to the newest ways to dynamically scale up or down as needs require, HP offers methods that are well suited to your business economics. Plus, HP provides aggressive trade-in and upgrade programs to help you painlessly evolve. As Carly stated when we began, the world of IT has changed dramatically in the past five years. That's why a collaborative approach to design and to build an Adaptive Enterprise is crucial. In closing, I'd like to leave you with three ideas: - Consider breathing new life into your organization and replace your RISC platform with a more robust architecture - Consider replacing those tired IBM mainframes with a lower-cost and more agile solution - Consider swapping out those legacy Sun servers with an HP system you can count on for the next decade and beyond. The HP Integrity family of servers offers the superior choice, focused innovation and world-class experience for your most demanding workloads. And, there is no better time to start than today. While you are here, I urge you to spend time using the resources at this event site, particularly the 'Evolve today' section. And then contact your local HP Representative today to learn more. Thanks again for joining us." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:05:52 -0500 From: Peter Sjoberg Subject: RE: MemoryChannel VMS Cluster problem Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:31:31 +0000, Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote: > In article , Peter Sjoberg writes: >>> As I recall, early on in the VMS V7.3-1 release there was an issue with >>> MC interconnects. Are you running the latest patch update for VMS >>> V7.3-1? >>Nope, was running unpatched stuff. I headed over to hp.com, signed up (no >>contract needed :) )and downloaded VMS731_PCSI-V0200 & >>VMS731_UPDATE-V0400, and after installing them it worked directly. > > No need to sign up at all. ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/alpha/V7.3-1/ Probably works also if you know what you looking for or don't mind reading all release notes. Last time I updated VMS was when I had DEC Support to connect in over DSN and do the fixing, and it seems to have changed a little since then. > > And consider upgrading to V7.3-2 ASAP I installed 7.3-1 because that's the latest I have, the latest from http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/mount.html and $362us for kit form HP is a bit to much for my hobby budget. If I get my hands on something later (7.3-2, 8.x) I probably install it but intil then I patch up 7.3-1 and run with that. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:34:21 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium Message-ID: <1106041039.8458bac5632569d43e2a38a211596aed@teranews> Tom Linden wrote: > True, but since Intel has cooled to the Itanium, and they only have a 3 > yearn contractual obligation to HP, one might reasonably ask, what happens then. > Given the cost of the fab, if they have a captive customer it might be > tempting to recoup some of the capital investment from them. Intel doesn't have a FAB dedicated to IA64. It uses the same FAB as the 8086. Does anyone know how long it takes to switch product/chip at a FAB (say to produce 8086s one day and Alphas the next ?) Is this measured in minutes, hours, days, weeks ? I assume that they have designed the FAbs so that product switches don't entail long downtimes. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:07:41 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium Message-ID: <1106041024.a323c2d3643f0299033fd8178a7b04f4@teranews> Tom Linden wrote: > True, but since Intel has cooled to the Itanium, and they only have a 3 > yearn contractual obligation to HP, one might reasonably ask, what happens then. > Given the cost of the fab, if they have a captive customer it might be > tempting to recoup some of the capital investment from them. Intel doesn't have a FAB dedicated to IA64. It uses the same FAB as the 8086. Does anyone know how long it takes to switch product/chip at a FAB (say to produce 8086s one day and Alphas the next ?) Is this measured in minutes, hours, days, weeks ? I assume that they have designed the FAbs so that product switches don't entail long downtimes. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:42:05 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium Message-ID: <1106041012.06cf737956d089a5b5a125cd3d2e6a94@teranews> Tom Linden wrote: > True, but since Intel has cooled to the Itanium, and they only have a 3 > yearn contractual obligation to HP, one might reasonably ask, what happens then. > Given the cost of the fab, if they have a captive customer it might be > tempting to recoup some of the capital investment from them. Intel doesn't have a FAB dedicated to IA64. It uses the same FAB as the 8086. Does anyone know how long it takes to switch product/chip at a FAB (say to produce 8086s one day and Alphas the next ?) Is this measured in minutes, hours, days, weeks ? I assume that they have designed the FAbs so that product switches don't entail long downtimes. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:24:06 GMT From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium Message-ID: In article <41EC90D7.2020005@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble wrote: >Keith Parris wrote: > >> >> Integrity Servers cost less than the equivalent Alpha box (thanks to >> economies of scale). So it's not hard to convince intelligent people to >> purchase them. > > >Can you be specific about "economies of scale"? > ... >Does an Alpha box really cost more to mfg? My bet is that HP is charging a >premium for Alpha, since the only customers left don't have any other choices. >A bit like a MicroVAX 3100 model 98 costing twice as much as an Alpha that was >10 times faster. Alpha systems absolutely cost more to make than similar Integrity systems. You'd lose your bet if the numbers were available to the public. Since they're not, you're safe with your wild public speculations. The HP system designers are have traditionally been much more cost-aware than the Alpha system designers at Digital. Integrity systems have much more re-use of components and subsystems, for example. The HP design teams are just better at low-cost design than their Digital counterparts, likely because their managers have pushed for low cost for years. There is a cultural difference that couldn't happen overnight even if Digital had wanted to design lower-cost servers. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 13:50:03 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium Message-ID: <354igbF4gp8quU1@individual.net> In article , kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) writes: > In article , Keith Parris writes: >> JF Mezei wrote: >>> My guess is that Alpha VMS sales will outlive IA64 VMS sales. >> >> As Alpha sales are slated to end next year, in 2006, your guess is very >> unlikely. > > When was the last PDP-11 sold? You can't answer that one without a crystal ball. The question should not be in the past tense yet. Forget about the Alpha, I expect PDP-11 sales to outlive IA64 sales. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:29:43 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium Message-ID: <41ED4783.F705C654@teksavvy.com> Robert Deininger wrote: > Alpha systems absolutely cost more to make than similar Integrity > systems. You'd lose your bet if the numbers were available to the > public. Since they're not, you're safe with your wild public > speculations. Why should an Alpha box cost more than an IA64 box ? Is the the power supply ? Is it the case ? Is it the disk drives ? Is it the connectors ? Is it the type of memory ? Are alpha servers built with gold solder instead of lead ? If it is just the chip which is different, then I doubt that Alpha chips actualy cost more than IA64, especially if HP ordered one large batch of them made for a final production. (Higher volum the smaller quaktities of IA64s being made in light of the fact that the chip is still evolving and you don't want to stockpile years worth of Merced supplies). If IA64 and Alpha servers are of same quality, I do not buy the argument that the Alpha has to be more expensive. Remember that many were done under Compaq which also had good "low cost manufacturing" expertise. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 01:02:23 +0800 From: prep@prep.synonet.com Subject: Re: Next Gen Fabs & Itanium Message-ID: <87u0per7q8.fsf@prep.synonet.com> kaplow_r@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) writes: > When was the last PDP-11 sold? FA-18 spare are still available. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 06:43:34 -0800 From: "Ken Robinson" Subject: OT: "Membership" in Usenet Groups (was Re: ipod anyone?) Message-ID: <1106059414.797653.324550@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> JPG wrote: > On 18 Jan 2005 01:37:31 -0800, andrew01@gmail.com wrote: > > > >(p.s. Im not just some random guy that came here to post my link, I > >have actually looked around on this forum before. I just became a > >member recently though. ) > > One doesn't become a "member" of a newsgroup, liar. In Google Groups Beta (or GG2), there is a requirement that you join or subscribe to a group before you can post, so technically since he joined the group he is a member. They are treating UseNet groups no different than any other web based discussion area where you have to subscribe before posting. Unfortunately, there's nobody checking to see who joins... Ken ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:31:19 GMT From: Nigel Barker Subject: Re: Region coded VMS next? Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:17:18 -0500, "Main, Kerry" wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alex van Denzel [mailto:vandenzel@hotmail.com] >> Sent: January 17, 2005 12:03 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Region coded VMS next? >> >> John Smith wrote: >> > Soon after the computer arrived from the U.S. he plugged it >> in. There was "a >> > big bang, like an explosion, and white smoke out of the >> speaker grilles," he >> > says. The machine then died. >> >> Probably without reading the warning label "This device is configured >> for 110V use only". >> >> -- >> Alex. > >Actually, since 110V only power supplies would likely be more expensive >to build when one has a world wide market, I would be really surprised >if they were not using universal power supplies. They typically have >110/220 switch at back of the unit and it is typically covered in some >kind of tape with label warning the user to set the switch to the >appropriate position depending on what the local power is. > >I suspect the person in the article just set the switch inappropriately >and paid the consequences. Many power supplies are auto-switching e.g. on most laptop computers. On my last visit to the US I bought a Braun electric razor in Wal-Mart which has US style plug on the power supply but is rated 100-240V ac 50-60 Hz / 7W. Purchase of a simple $3 plug converter saved me about $30 compared to buying the same razor in Europe. -- Nigel Barker Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:41:45 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Region coded VMS next? Message-ID: Nigel Barker wrote: > On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:17:18 -0500, "Main, Kerry" > wrote: > >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Alex van Denzel [mailto:vandenzel@hotmail.com] >>> Sent: January 17, 2005 12:03 PM >>> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>> Subject: Re: Region coded VMS next? >>> >>> John Smith wrote: >>>> Soon after the computer arrived from the U.S. he plugged it >>> in. There was "a >>>> big bang, like an explosion, and white smoke out of the >>> speaker grilles," he >>>> says. The machine then died. >>> >>> Probably without reading the warning label "This device is >>> configured for 110V use only". >>> >>> -- >>> Alex. >> >> Actually, since 110V only power supplies would likely be more >> expensive to build when one has a world wide market, I would be >> really surprised if they were not using universal power supplies. >> They typically have 110/220 switch at back of the unit and it is >> typically covered in some kind of tape with label warning the user >> to set the switch to the appropriate position depending on what the >> local power is. >> >> I suspect the person in the article just set the switch >> inappropriately and paid the consequences. > > Many power supplies are auto-switching e.g. on most laptop computers. > On my last visit to the US I bought a Braun electric razor in > Wal-Mart which has US style plug on the power supply but is rated > 100-240V ac 50-60 Hz / 7W. Purchase of a simple $3 plug converter > saved me about $30 compared to buying the same razor in Europe. Are you planning to bring back any HP ink cartridges on your next trip to plug into your Euro-market HP printer? HP calls the cartridges the same '57' or '14' or whatever for all markets yet some clearly are 'sabotaged' from working. Kind of reminds me how laptops playing DVD's encoded for different regions have their DVD drives cease to function because Hollywood insists on it. I wonder when some Texas class-action lawyer will come after HP when a globe-trotting consultant or executive finds out that HP has consipired with others to do this - same could happen to Toshiba or Dell, etc.... not to just pick on HP. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:59:22 -0800 From: David Mathog Subject: Re: Reorg Message-ID: Tom Linden wrote: > On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:06:33 GMT, Keith Parris > wrote: > >> The article said profitable "today". HP has just entered the >> regulatory "quiet period" preceding its quarterly earnings >> announcement, so data about the latest quarter's profitability >> (including data about Wintel) is not available. The reporter should >> have asked about profitability last quarter, or last fiscal year --- >> then they could have gotten the reponse that yes, indeed, VMS was >> profitable. >> > > I noted last week that PCs and Printers are now in the same group. > That should > hide the miserable financial performance of the PC's. I had the exact same thought. Hard to see any "synergy" in the reorg - unless HP is planning on shipping PCs with HP printers built into them. On the other hand, it is absolutely wonderful for concealing the financial results in the PC business. It's also going to make the printer business look much less efficient since the profit (essentially unhanged = all from the printer side) will be divided by the sales from both businesses. Maybe HP thinks somebody wants to buy them so they're attempting to make their prize asset look less valuable? I couldn't think of anybody who would actually want to buy HP, but I suppose some corporate raider might be able to swing a deal to raise enough cash to do so, and could then spin off or sell the printer division at a profit, while chucking the rest of HP in the trash. Regards, David Mathog ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 09:32:47 -0800 From: "Ken Robinson" Subject: Re: Solution Message-ID: <1106069567.877974.35180@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Kenneth Farmer wrote: > Close current multimedia window. Open a new one and click on Ann or Rich as > soon as it opens. Then you'll go into that presentation. > > Ken It looks like they fixed the problem. Now it says "Loading part 2" and then continues... Ken (One of the other ones) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:01:01 GMT From: "Kenneth Farmer" Subject: Solution Message-ID: Close current multimedia window. Open a new one and click on Ann or Rich as soon as it opens. Then you'll go into that presentation. Ken OpenVMS.org _____________________________________ Kenneth R. Farmer <>< SpyderByte: http://www.SpyderByte.com "AEF" wrote in message news:1106066616.200231.21480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > I'm watching the Webcast, and it's just a 5-min(approx.) tape loop of > Carly talking in vast generalizations. Am I doing something wrong? Do I > have to hit a secret advance to the rest of the Webcast button? > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:45:40 +0000 (UTC) From: hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) Subject: Re: Solution Message-ID: In article , "Kenneth Farmer" writes: !Close current multimedia window. Open a new one and click on Ann or Rich as !soon as it opens. Then you'll go into that presentation. ! !Ken ! !OpenVMS.org !_____________________________________ !Kenneth R. Farmer <>< !SpyderByte: http://www.SpyderByte.com ! ! ! !"AEF" wrote in message !news:1106066616.200231.21480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... !> I'm watching the Webcast, and it's just a 5-min(approx.) tape loop of !> Carly talking in vast generalizations. Am I doing something wrong? Do I !> have to hit a secret advance to the rest of the Webcast button? !> ! ! Thanks, that did the trick... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:31:26 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Solution Message-ID: <41ED55F6.5B2DE9FF@teksavvy.com> Ken Robinson wrote: > It looks like they fixed the problem. Now it says "Loading part 2" and > then continues... I won't bother. I've wasted enough time on this. We, as VMS loyalists, had been told to expect great things from this LIVE web cast. Not only is the presentatio medium totally flawed, and not only is this just a pre-recorded message devoid of content, but it does nothing to increase VMS's exposure. The articles and press releases of yesterday had far more content than today's supposed event. In fairness, the choice of flash over microsoft is a good political move, even if from a technology point of view, it doesn't seem to be ready for prime time. Flash is available on far more platforms than Microsoft media thing. Airbus also tried used flash earlier today for its unveiling of the A380 beast. I did manage to get a couple of frames after about an hour. Thankfully the BBC carried a lot of the presentation. But at lea theyd to stream live content. It is amazing that web technologies are fairly mature and there should be experience on capacity planning and testing of "facilities" to provide reliable webcasts. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:36:30 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Solution Message-ID: <00A3E0EB.2E96D396@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <41ED55F6.5B2DE9FF@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei writes: >Ken Robinson wrote: >> It looks like they fixed the problem. Now it says "Loading part 2" and >> then continues... > > >I won't bother. I've wasted enough time on this. We, as VMS loyalists, >had been told to expect great things from this LIVE web cast. Not only >is the presentatio medium totally flawed, and not only is this just a >pre-recorded message devoid of content, but it does nothing to increase >VMS's exposure. > >The articles and press releases of yesterday had far more content than >today's supposed event. > > >In fairness, the choice of flash over microsoft is a good political >move, even if from a technology point of view, it doesn't seem to be >ready for prime time. Flash is available on far more platforms than >Microsoft media thing. > >Airbus also tried used flash earlier today for its unveiling of the A380 >beast. I did manage to get a couple of frames after about an hour. >Thankfully the BBC carried a lot of the presentation. But at lea theyd >to stream live content. > >It is amazing that web technologies are fairly mature and there should >be experience on capacity planning and testing of "facilities" to >provide reliable webcasts. Hmmm. Steve Jobs' keynote from Macworld San Francisco '05 plays flawlessly and much better quality than the Flash of the "Great HP OpenVMS on Itanium" we were asked to tune into today. Perhaps, HP needs to adopt QuickTime to go along with the iPods they've adopted. -- http://www.ProvN.com for the *best* OpenVMS system security solutions that others only claim to be. -- Cyber-Terrorism (si'-ber tayr'-or-iz-em) n.: The release of, the sale of, or the use of any Micro$oft software product! -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:26:03 GMT From: John Reagan Subject: Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris) Message-ID: I don't think anybody is considering dropping the source listing kit. I recently had to double-check if there are any listings in my facilities that I didn't want to be included in the listings kit for V8.2. So somebody is doing something. -- John Reagan HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:43:03 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris) Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:26:03 GMT, John Reagan wrote: > I don't think anybody is considering dropping the source listing kit. I > recently had to double-check if there are any listings in my > facilities that I didn't want to be included in the listings kit for > V8.2. So somebody is doing something. > > Can you tell me what the part number is to order it? -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 11:31:25 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris) Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:26:03 GMT, John Reagan wrote: > >> I don't think anybody is considering dropping the source listing kit. I >> recently had to double-check if there are any listings in my >> facilities that I didn't want to be included in the listings kit for >> V8.2. So somebody is doing something. >> >> > Can you tell me what the part number is to order it? From http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP4187/SP4187PF.PDF : Source Listings Kits QB-MT1AB-E8 OpenVMS Alpha Listings CD-ROM Kit and License QB-001AB-E8 OpenVMS VAX Listings CD-ROM Kit and License OpenVMS Source Listings Service QT-MT1AB-Q8 OpenVMS Alpha Source Listings Service QT-001AB-Q8 OpenVMS VAX Source Listings Service QB- gets you the current version (7.3-2 for Alpha, 7.3 for VAX) and QT- gets you updates as they are released. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:25:50 GMT From: John Reagan Subject: Re: Source Listings Kit (was: vms versus solaris) Message-ID: Larry Kilgallen wrote: > From http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP4187/SP4187PF.PDF : > > Source Listings Kits > > QB-MT1AB-E8 OpenVMS Alpha Listings CD-ROM Kit and License > QB-001AB-E8 OpenVMS VAX Listings CD-ROM Kit and License > > OpenVMS Source Listings Service > > QT-MT1AB-Q8 OpenVMS Alpha Source Listings Service > QT-001AB-Q8 OpenVMS VAX Source Listings Service > > QB- gets you the current version (7.3-2 for Alpha, 7.3 for VAX) > and QT- gets you updates as they are released. I'm guessing that soon you'd get V8.2 for Alpha and the addition of an I64 kit. And no, I don't know the part number for I64. I'm just an engineer and don't see that level of product detail. -- John Reagan HP Pascal/{A|I}MACRO for OpenVMS Project Leader Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:01:51 -0500 From: "Neil Rieck" Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:41EC8466.D1702D22@teksavvy.com... [...snip...] > > Sorry, C is often portrayed by some as some evil dangerous language with > C programmers considered satan worshippers. > > And yes, I am guilty of programming in C. I too am a "C" programmer. However, my employer prefers that programmers in our division stick with Compaq-BASIC which means that only 5% of my work is done in "C". Since those that pay the piper call the tune, we do what we are told unless we can justify otherwise. My only real beef these days is that people don't comment their work sufficiently. One of our team members recently left us (promotion) and we discovered that almost all his work since 1999 was undocumented so maybe my employer should bring back code reviews. Despite all the ripping that both "C" and UNIX get, I see places where both are valuable. 1. Two years back we did business with a company called PixStream (until they were taken over by Cisco and then shut down) who were using an embedded form of UNIX on every one of their video decoder cards. 2. The open source movement (LINUX, Apache, ISC, OpenOffice, etc.) is my primary example and will probably be the only group of programmers capable of taking on Microsoft head to head. This is one reason why I think OpenVMS engineers where pretty smart with their "OpenVMS UNIX Portability Initiative". It lets customers have the best of both worlds. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 04:59:59 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: In article , "Neil Rieck" writes: > > "JF Mezei" wrote in message > news:41EC8466.D1702D22@teksavvy.com... > [...snip...] >> >> Sorry, C is often portrayed by some as some evil dangerous language with >> C programmers considered satan worshippers. >> >> And yes, I am guilty of programming in C. > > I too am a "C" programmer. However, my employer prefers that programmers in > our division stick with Compaq-BASIC which means that only 5% of my work is > done in "C". Since those that pay the piper call the tune, we do what we are > told unless we can justify otherwise. My only real beef these days is that > people don't comment their work sufficiently. Most languages are equivalent in that regard, although APL and TECO have a bit of a leg-up. > Despite all the ripping that both "C" and UNIX get, I see places where both > are valuable. > 2. The open source movement (LINUX, Apache, ISC, OpenOffice, etc.) is my > primary example and will probably be the only group of programmers capable > of taking on Microsoft head to head. Open Source Software can be written in any language. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:02:09 +0000 (UTC) From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > > There is more to a high-level language than that. How about strong typing, > lexical scoping and inheritance, on conditions, real I/O, just to name a > few. One can find some equivalence for those PL/Iisms in C or its libraries. ON conditions eg by signal()-mechanisms. > How does he do decimal arithmetic (something insurance companies must do) > in C? Relegate that to some library once and for all. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:08:11 +0000 (UTC) From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: In article , "Neil Rieck" writes: > One big difference (if I'm not mistaken) is that OpenVMS supports > quota-based resource management while UNIX and Windows do not. This allows > processes in UNIX to do many weird things like spawn off a zillion daughter > processes or allocate a huge amount of memory etc. Can you say "ulimit" ? Modern Unices have file system "quota" as well. You - as many in this group - should do some reality check. Unix hasn't stopped developing in the 80's, this is 21st century. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 06:48:04 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: In article , m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: > In article , "Tom Linden" writes: >> >> There is more to a high-level language than that. How about strong typing, >> lexical scoping and inheritance, on conditions, real I/O, just to name a >> few. > > One can find some equivalence for those PL/Iisms in C or its libraries. I do not understand how an external library can make up for C's inherent lack of nested subprogram declaration capability. Those are not just PL/Iisms -- that one is a basic feature of Pascal, Ada, and even Bliss ! ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 06:52:18 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: In article , m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: > In article , "Neil Rieck" writes: >> One big difference (if I'm not mistaken) is that OpenVMS supports >> quota-based resource management while UNIX and Windows do not. This allows >> processes in UNIX to do many weird things like spawn off a zillion daughter >> processes or allocate a huge amount of memory etc. > > Can you say "ulimit" ? Sure, but unless you explain what it means, pronouncing a strange word does not help. > Modern Unices have file system "quota" as well. Ok, so I gather "ulimit" is not a disk quota. Is it a quota on pagefile space ? Per process or per user ? Is it a quota on outstanding I/O requests ? Per process or per user ? Is it a quota on use of non-paged pool ? Per process or per user ? Is it a quota on open files ? Per process or per user ? Is it a quota on timer queue entries ? Per process or per user ? Is it a quota on outstanding ASTs ? (I guess not :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:53:34 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <77ydnQ3d6JFKiXDcRVn-vA@igs.net> Larry Kilgallen wrote: > In article , "Neil > Rieck" writes: >> >> "JF Mezei" wrote in message >> news:41EC8466.D1702D22@teksavvy.com... >> [...snip...] >>> >>> Sorry, C is often portrayed by some as some evil dangerous language >>> with C programmers considered satan worshippers. >>> >>> And yes, I am guilty of programming in C. >> >> I too am a "C" programmer. However, my employer prefers that >> programmers in our division stick with Compaq-BASIC which means that >> only 5% of my work is done in "C". Since those that pay the piper >> call the tune, we do what we are told unless we can justify >> otherwise. My only real beef these days is that people don't comment >> their work sufficiently. > > Most languages are equivalent in that regard, although APL and TECO > have a bit of a leg-up. My APL programs tend to have more in-line documentation than actual code. We always have two people who have never seen a piece of new code written by a third person walk through it and the associated comments to ensure that it is reasonably clearly documented and that the comments actually reflect what the code does. We are also a bit anal in that we use a 'standard' documentation header template for each module/routine/method which forms a part of the source code in addition to comments inserted in the body of the source. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 14:49:41 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <354m04F36sk1oU1@individual.net> In article <41EC88AA.6040702@tsoft-inc.com>, Dave Froble writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > >>>>Wether the user wants it to or not. >>>> >>> >>>No, can't say that. Using QIO you have access to files without any of the RMS >>>overhead. You can implement whatever type of file handling you wish, and have >>>the DLM to easily implement whatever type of locking you wish. >>> >> >> But which is the default when I say "OPEN" in Pascal or some other >> language? Yes, you can get around RMS, but VMS starts with the >> everything including the kitchen sink. Unix starts with the least >> and lets the user add on additional requirements. Different >> approaches to the same problem caused by the difference in the >> underlying paradigm of the OS. Neither one is better, just >> different. > > > When you say "OPEN" in Pascal, you're now talking about what a language and > compiler offer, not what the OS offers. What happens when you open a VMS > channel to a file from Pascal? You can now do I/O at the QIO level. What's > your point? Actually, I'm talking about what a Pascal Programmer is going to put in his code. QIO isn't Pascal. Just for grins, tell me which is faster. Using QIO or using the default IO provided by Pascal? I am pretty sure I already know the answer to that. And the result is everybody gets overhead even when it really buys them nothing. Unix philosophy is the other way around. If you want more, use it, but everybody (probably the majority) don't really need it. > > > >>>>There are alternatives that provide records and thus record locking. >>>> >>> >>>Can you be a bit more definitive about "thus record locking"? Care to look at >>>it in a multi-system configuration? With the exception of some IBM software, >>>I'm not aware of anything that can be considered in the same catagory as the VMS >>>DLM. >>> >> >> First, in order to have useful "record locking" you have to have something >> that handles data as records. It has already been stated (and accepted by >> the Unix camp) that the default file system is just a stream of bytes. > > > So Ok, from within a program on Unix, I implement code that treats the file as > records, calculating the record offset and bytecount and such. Now, how do I > take out a lock on the string of bytes I am accessing that will be respected by > cooperating programs? On VMS I can very easily use the DLM. If you are implementing a system, it's up to you. If your using a system someone else implemented, use theirs. Obviuosly, Unix can't provide a record locking mechanism for a system it is unaware of. And if the programs are "cooperating" it seems a trivial problem. The real problem becomes locking out that program that doesn't want to cooperate. I think that is what things like DLM do. > > >> As for multi-system configurations, I freely admit that no Unix I am >> aware of can do what VMS does in that arena. However, because everybody >> isn't flocking to VMS from Unix, apparently it isn't really that important. > > > Maybe Unix users have given up, or have devised workarounds, or don't even know > that such is possible. All three possibilities make their work harder, and less > useful. Hardly. There are just a lot of things that have come out of computing research that actually affect a lot less people than you think. of course, another one of the advantages to unix is that if you want something and no one else does you are free (and it is technically possible) to do it yourself because there are unixes available with the entire source and the legal right to re-engineer them. Interestingly enough, you don't find that happening very often. > > >> But, instead of trying to point out all these non-existant Unix short- >> comings maybe it wold be better if you just pointed out what VMS can >> do that Unix can't. That way you win and people who know the truth >> about Unix won't laugh behind your back after you have left the room >> from a loosing sales presentation. :-) > > > Partial list: > > Distributed Lock Manager There's one. (Although there actually is a DLM for Unix. It's just that most unix people haven't really found much use for it yet.) > Robust development environment. How is it more robust than the ones available under unix? > VAX/DEC BASIC Dykstra would say that was a strike against VMS. And why is it any better than the BASIC(s) available under unix? > Clustering, as it was originally defined, shared everything, not fallover Now you have two. But this one only affects a small handfull of users. > DECnet What is the advantage of DECnet over other networking protocols? There are lots of disadvantages. Oh yeah, that has been available for unix since the Ultrix days and while I have even used it, unless you are also running VMS (or PDP-11's :-) it really hasn't much use in the unix world. > > Since I don't know Unix, some of the following may not be VMS only: > > Global sections If this is Systemwide Logicals, unix can do that, but not as gracefully as VMS. > Access to system calls outside of C ?? Outside in what way? Any language can call any library. If you mean from a shell, I've never seen it done and because of the nature of the unix system calls I am not sure it would even make sense. > Logicals Got them. Just don't call them the same thing. > Symbols Aren't they really the same as Logicals? (I really don't know the difference.) > Mailboxes Not sure of the real nature of VMS "Mailboxes". I get my email in a "mailbox", but VMS seems to have a different meaning. I think this is likely the same pty's or some combination of other methods of IPC. > > >> >>> >>>>When Unix users need this feature they use it. But more oftne than >>>>not, they don't need it. Neither do they need the overhead such >>>>systems bring with them. > > > How about, they don't use some features because they don't have them available? If they really needed them, someone would implement them. Heck, Linus Torvalds implemented another whole unix-like system because of his warped sense that it was "needed". And the developers flocked to him to expand it. Do you really think that if there wa anything that was really seen as important that no one would implement it? > >>>As mentioned before, using the QIO interface, VMS can also do low overhead I/O. >>> The difference is with Unix, usually one must acquire additional capability, >>>with associated costs, while the capability is part of VMS. >>> >> >> Associated costs? How much does Postgres cost? Large amounts of >> Unix software is available for the taking. Again, difference in >> philosophy. I will put any package my users need (within reason, >> you won't find Doom) on our Unix servers. The people who run the >> VMS system will not even put up stuff from the Freeware CD. >> > > > What some people will put on Unix, and what others will put on VMS, doesn't seem > to have anything to do with a discussion on OS features. The example was merely meant to show that the biggest difference between VMS and unix is philosophical between the two userbases. Which is why it always seems to be a religous war rather than a technical discussion. bill PS. Hope it's warmer in your corner of the state than it is in mine!! -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 09:42:56 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: In article <353d9eF4heoajU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > If a stream of bytes can do the job why force everybody to use something > else to satisfy that one person who might actually need it? If a stream of bytes can do the job, VMS will provide you a stream of bytes. Generally organization is not a bad thing, especially when it comes to data. If a sequence of records is better at doing the job, UNIX is out of luck. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 09:39:34 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: In article <3IudnYo-79LDqnHcRVn-3g@igs.net>, "John Smith" writes: > > They get taught about 1.5 days of instruction in university about ISAM > theory, do 2 coding exercise assignments worth 6% of their term mark, and > that is....back to stream of bytes for the rest of their careers. I never hire anybody who can't learn on the job. And VMS is so easy to learn. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 09:41:26 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <0vkL8cAIs54q@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , "Neil Rieck" writes: > One big difference (if I'm not mistaken) is that OpenVMS supports > quota-based resource management while UNIX and Windows do not. This allows > processes in UNIX to do many weird things like spawn off a zillion daughter > processes or allocate a huge amount of memory etc. I think you mwan what most of us call process based quotas vs. system based quotas. You were right up unti the 80's, but nowdays many UNIX have implimented process basd or user based quotas. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 09:45:09 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: In article <353do6F4heoajU3@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > So, I'm not human? Thanks a lot.... :-) I didn't say you're not human, I said UNIX wasn't designed to deal with you. You had a bigger learning curve than you would have if it was. No English speaker walking up to there first computer thinks "I need to print a file, I'll try lpr." ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 09:55:19 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: In article <41EC90D0.4465F28D@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> Unix is just as much english as VMS is, just shorter. > > Unix is its own language. And it's had quite an impact on other OS. > > Consider CD. It has propagated to DOS and essentially is standard on VMS > because just about every system manager has a CD :== "SET DEF" in SYLOGIN.COM. Not in any shop where I'm the system manager. I've actually had one (1), count them : ONE programmer who set up cd, pwd, ... for his VMS account. All true VMS users know that sd is the symbol for some command file that does nice things with set default. > and a "root account" is understood across platforms much more than the > "system account" would be. So there are a lot of Unix terminology that > has essentially become industry standard which allows people of > different OS religion to understand each other. My admin friend down the hall recognizes "admin account". Some OS are even more prevalent than UNIX. But we've gotten far away from the OP's request to know the differences between Solaris and VMS. We've done a lot of flame baiting, but I still stand by my original answers even if Bill doens't like them. Bill knows I think VMS is a superior OS, and I know VMS is a superior OS, but he read a lot of what he knows about me into his interpretation of my original response. I haven't seen anything that actually factually refutes any one of my points. He just doesn't like to hear me say them. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 09:59:23 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > In article <353d9eF4heoajU2@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > >> If a stream of bytes can do the job why force everybody to use something >> else to satisfy that one person who might actually need it? > > There are very few real-world applications best modeled as a stream > of bytes. No, but you can create a lot of student homework applications with just a stream of bytes. Or singly-linked lists. Or other little things you should avoid in real life. With all the emphasis on OOP in the last decade, you might think somebody would realize data needs to be organized. Oh, maybe that's why Oracle is pulling down so much dough. I know there are applications that need the full power of a DBMS. But I also know large numbers of Oracle data bases serving the needs met by a $2K ISAM package. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:39:54 -0500 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: vms versus solaris Message-ID: <41ED57FA.8060903@tsoft-inc.com> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <41EC88AA.6040702@tsoft-inc.com>, > Dave Froble writes: > >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> >> >>>>>Wether the user wants it to or not. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>No, can't say that. Using QIO you have access to files without any of the RMS >>>>overhead. You can implement whatever type of file handling you wish, and have >>>>the DLM to easily implement whatever type of locking you wish. >>>> >>>> >>>But which is the default when I say "OPEN" in Pascal or some other >>>language? Yes, you can get around RMS, but VMS starts with the >>>everything including the kitchen sink. Unix starts with the least >>>and lets the user add on additional requirements. Different >>>approaches to the same problem caused by the difference in the >>>underlying paradigm of the OS. Neither one is better, just >>>different. >>> >> >>When you say "OPEN" in Pascal, you're now talking about what a language and >>compiler offer, not what the OS offers. What happens when you open a VMS >>channel to a file from Pascal? You can now do I/O at the QIO level. What's >>your point? >> > > Actually, I'm talking about what a Pascal Programmer is going to put > in his code. QIO isn't Pascal. Just for grins, tell me which is faster. > Using QIO or using the default IO provided by Pascal? I am pretty sure > I already know the answer to that. And the result is everybody gets > overhead even when it really buys them nothing. Unix philosophy is > the other way around. If you want more, use it, but everybody (probably > the majority) don't really need it. I consider myself a BASIC programmer since I do more of that than anything else. While there is a bunch of Macro-32 stuff, I don't use it enough to claim proficiency. I think you have to do it all the time to be proficient. As for the Basic stuff, I could post multiple examples where I ASSIGN a VMS channel and perform QIO operations. I can't see why the same couldn't be done from Pascal when required. >> >>>>>There are alternatives that provide records and thus record locking. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Can you be a bit more definitive about "thus record locking"? Care to look at >>>>it in a multi-system configuration? With the exception of some IBM software, >>>>I'm not aware of anything that can be considered in the same catagory as the VMS >>>>DLM. >>>> >>>> >>>First, in order to have useful "record locking" you have to have something >>>that handles data as records. It has already been stated (and accepted by >>>the Unix camp) that the default file system is just a stream of bytes. >>> >> >>So Ok, from within a program on Unix, I implement code that treats the file as >>records, calculating the record offset and bytecount and such. Now, how do I >>take out a lock on the string of bytes I am accessing that will be respected by >>cooperating programs? On VMS I can very easily use the DLM. >> > > If you are implementing a system, it's up to you. If your using a system > someone else implemented, use theirs. Obviuosly, Unix can't provide a > record locking mechanism for a system it is unaware of. And if the > programs are "cooperating" it seems a trivial problem. The real problem > becomes locking out that program that doesn't want to cooperate. I think > that is what things like DLM do. Nope! Like any type of locking, it's a cooperative thing. There was a thread a while back that discussed locks at the ACP level. I'm pretty sure that I can assign a channel and read from a file regardless of what other activity is occurring, so without cooperation, there is no effective locking. What's nice about the DLM is that it's not just something for files. A lock can be taken out for any resource name, and all tasks that will respect that lock can coordinate their activity. >>>As for multi-system configurations, I freely admit that no Unix I am >>>aware of can do what VMS does in that arena. However, because everybody >>>isn't flocking to VMS from Unix, apparently it isn't really that important. >>> >> >>Maybe Unix users have given up, or have devised workarounds, or don't even know >>that such is possible. All three possibilities make their work harder, and less >>useful. >> > > Hardly. There are just a lot of things that have come out of computing > research that actually affect a lot less people than you think. of course, > another one of the advantages to unix is that if you want something and > no one else does you are free (and it is technically possible) to do it > yourself because there are unixes available with the entire source and > the legal right to re-engineer them. Interestingly enough, you don't find > that happening very often. > > > >> >>>But, instead of trying to point out all these non-existant Unix short- >>>comings maybe it wold be better if you just pointed out what VMS can >>>do that Unix can't. That way you win and people who know the truth >>>about Unix won't laugh behind your back after you have left the room >>>from a loosing sales presentation. :-) >>> >> >>Partial list: >> >>Distributed Lock Manager >> > > There's one. (Although there actually is a DLM for Unix. It's just that > most unix people haven't really found much use for it yet.) > > >>Robust development environment. >> > > How is it more robust than the ones available under unix? Don't know. I don't use Unix. I do know that I can use many different languages on VMS, including mixing together modules written in different languages in the same application. The common calling standard on VMS is something I should have included in the list. Don't know if Unix has the same. However, the only language on VMS that can cause some problems is C. Gotta be real careful when calling a C routine, or when calling from C. >>VAX/DEC BASIC >> > > Dykstra would say that was a strike against VMS. Another bigot, like me? > And why is it any > better than the BASIC(s) available under unix? For me, because I have a hugh amount of code, which probably wouldn't work without some conversion on another system. Admittedly, that reason is specific to me and other users of VAX/DEC BASIC, but there are more than a few, and it's a very big issue to us. >>Clustering, as it was originally defined, shared everything, not fallover >> > > Now you have two. But this one only affects a small handfull of users. Are you saying that because VMS has a small market share? If not, then justify your claim. It's this capability that allows VMS to scale to the job, and adjust as job requirements change, all transparent to the applications. Possibly your "small handful" actually do much more work than a very large number of Unix users? >>DECnet >> > > What is the advantage of DECnet over other networking protocols? There > are lots of disadvantages. Oh yeah, that has been available for unix > since the Ultrix days and while I have even used it, unless you are > also running VMS (or PDP-11's :-) it really hasn't much use in the unix > world. Ah, I'd forgotten that there has been implementations of DECnet for many other operating systems. Got me on that one. But, DECnet can be much more secure than TCP/IP. That might be of use to the Unix world. >>Since I don't know Unix, some of the following may not be VMS only: >> >>Global sections >> > > If this is Systemwide Logicals, unix can do that, but not as gracefully > as VMS. Shared sections of memory. >>Access to system calls outside of C >> > > ?? Outside in what way? Any language can call any library. If you > mean from a shell, I've never seen it done and because of the nature > of the unix system calls I am not sure it would even make sense. Sometime in the past there was a thread on something similar to this. I asked how to perform some task, and the replies indicated that the only access was through the use of a C library routine. Can't remember the details. >>Logicals >> > > Got them. Just don't call them the same thing. > > >>Symbols >> > > Aren't they really the same as Logicals? (I really don't know the > difference.) No, not the same thing. >>Mailboxes >> > > Not sure of the real nature of VMS "Mailboxes". I get my email in a > "mailbox", but VMS seems to have a different meaning. I think this > is likely the same pty's or some combination of other methods of IPC. A VMS mailbox is a inter process communication device. It can be sync or async. >>>>>When Unix users need this feature they use it. But more oftne than >>>>>not, they don't need it. Neither do they need the overhead such >>>>>systems bring with them. >>>>> >> >>How about, they don't use some features because they don't have them available? >> > > If they really needed them, someone would implement them. The problem here is that probably many people each do a custom implementation, which can be significant work. With the capability already in VMS, the need to implement is gone. It's like 2 C libraries, one with minimal support, and one with a robust selection of capabilities. Which would you rather use? > Heck, Linus > Torvalds implemented another whole unix-like system because of his > warped sense that it was "needed". And the developers flocked to > him to expand it. Do you really think that if there wa anything that > was really seen as important that no one would implement it? > > >>>>As mentioned before, using the QIO interface, VMS can also do low overhead I/O. >>>> The difference is with Unix, usually one must acquire additional capability, >>>>with associated costs, while the capability is part of VMS. >>>> >>>> >>>Associated costs? How much does Postgres cost? Large amounts of >>>Unix software is available for the taking. Again, difference in >>>philosophy. I will put any package my users need (within reason, >>>you won't find Doom) on our Unix servers. The people who run the >>>VMS system will not even put up stuff from the Freeware CD. >>> >>> >> >>What some people will put on Unix, and what others will put on VMS, doesn't seem >>to have anything to do with a discussion on OS features. >> > > The example was merely meant to show that the biggest difference between > VMS and unix is philosophical between the two userbases. Which is why > it always seems to be a religous war rather than a technical discussion. > > bill > PS. Hope it's warmer in your corner of the state than it is in mine!! > > Down to 3 last night. :-( ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 08:43:36 -0800 From: "AEF" Subject: Webcast inifinite loop Message-ID: <1106066616.200231.21480@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> I'm watching the Webcast, and it's just a 5-min(approx.) tape loop of Carly talking in vast generalizations. Am I doing something wrong? Do I have to hit a secret advance to the rest of the Webcast button? ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 08:49:09 -0800 From: "Ken Robinson" Subject: Re: Webcast inifinite loop Message-ID: <1106066949.904624.104460@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> AEF wrote: > I'm watching the Webcast, and it's just a 5-min(approx.) tape loop of > Carly talking in vast generalizations. Am I doing something wrong? Do I > have to hit a secret advance to the rest of the Webcast button? Same problem here... Must be running a MicroShaft OS. :-) If you go back to the launch page, launch the HTML version. There you can read the transcripts. Ken ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 08:54:20 -0800 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: Webcast inifinite loop Message-ID: <1106067260.930503.255010@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Actually, I've found that if you relaunch the multimedia window, and click on the spearker you want early enough, you get that speaker. But I just heard Marcello say something about "here's what our customers say" followed by a repeat of the whole thing. This is the big Web cast? A bunch of hard-to-run taped speeches? I'd try to see the Online chat, by Websense here forbids here. Oh well. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 09:10:06 -0800 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: Webcast inifinite loop Message-ID: <1106068206.795318.167600@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Actually, Marcello's video stops short of what his HTML transcript gives. Triple digit growth? That could mean 200% increase from 1 to 3 total servers sold. I'd like to see better numbers. 'Good to hear some good words about VMS. Not a lot, but good: "With our third announcement for today, the list of available operating environments just got longer, as we are releasing OpenVMS version 8.2 on Integrity. The production release of OpenVMS 8.2 not only provides you with outstanding price/performance, reduces total cost of ownership and offers investment protection for OpenVMS operating environments, but also ensures greater adaptability and flexibility for IT environments in general." ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 10:20:02 -0800 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: Webcast inifinite loop Message-ID: <1106072402.106003.89600@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> JF Mezei wrote: > AEF wrote: > > 'Good to hear some good words about VMS. Not a lot, but good: > > > You went and looked for it. The average guy just heard the repeating > broken Carly loop that said nothing and went away. That loop didn't > mention anything about VMS. Yes, that is unfortunate. > > And of the few questions about VMS tha were allowe to be > displayed/answer, there must have been plenty that weren't published. > But at least Livermore and company go to read the questions, and that is > a way to send a message. Well, now we know why they don't advertise VMS! It's because they find that customers don't view VMS as an industry standard! Fascinating. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:16:49 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Webcast inifinite loop Message-ID: <41ED528A.7414BA90@teksavvy.com> AEF wrote: > 'Good to hear some good words about VMS. Not a lot, but good: You went and looked for it. The average guy just heard the repeating broken Carly loop that said nothing and went away. That loop didn't mention anything about VMS. And of the few questions about VMS tha were allowe to be displayed/answer, there must have been plenty that weren't published. But at least Livermore and company go to read the questions, and that is a way to send a message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:28:24 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Webcast inifinite loop Message-ID: On 18 Jan 2005 08:49:09 -0800, Ken Robinson wrote: > > AEF wrote: >> I'm watching the Webcast, and it's just a 5-min(approx.) tape loop of >> Carly talking in vast generalizations. Am I doing something wrong? Do > I >> have to hit a secret advance to the rest of the Webcast button? > > Same problem here... Must be running a MicroShaft OS. :-) If you go > back to the launch page, launch the HTML version. There you can read > the transcripts. > > Ken > It continues refreshing making rather difficult to read, solution Select all, Copy and Paste into Emacs window. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 10:33:01 -0800 From: johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Webcast Q+A session transcript - VMS related (mostly) Message-ID: <1106073181.412907.265100@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> John Smith wrote: > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=05/01/18/2302980 > > some additional comment and questions asked/not answered > > > Probably should continue in this thread by contributing questions we each > asked that didn't get answered. Okay. Here's one from the Q&A chat that I captured... I know one of you is responsible, I just want to know who to thank. Q: When will the higher-ups at HP realize the value of VMS as being not just another version of a toy operating system, or a billybox OS, and really tout it as unique, solid, reliable, mission-critical, etc? Or are you all so caught up in towing the Microsoft party line? Ann Livermore (A): OpenVMS is one of the most powerful operating environments in the industry. The fact that we chose to make OpenVMS available on Integrity speaks to the fact that HP executives understand its value and want it as a powerful part of our portfolio. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:28:09 -0500 From: "John Smith" Subject: Webcast Q+A session transcript - VMS related (mostly) Message-ID: http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=05/01/18/2302980 some additional comment and questions asked/not answered Probably should continue in this thread by contributing questions we each asked that didn't get answered. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 2005 09:07:57 -0800 From: sales@pdflib.com (Karl Obermayr) Subject: [Ann] Automatically generate PDF on VMS with PDFlib Message-ID: PDFlib GmbH releases PDFlib 6 for VMS/OpenVMS Munich, January 18, 2005 - PDFlib GmbH, leading producer of internationally selling PDF-based document processing tools, recently released PDFlib 6 for VMS on Alpha. PDFlib is a vastly enhanced new version of the popular multi- environment programming library for automated and server-centric PDF processing. PDFlib is a programming library which allows the programmer to generate and manipulate PDF files and integrate this ability into any application or server environment. PDFlib is available for all major operating systems and development environments - now also on VMS/OpenVMS. PDFlib 6 adds many new features to the PDFlib product suite - PDFlib, PDFlib+PDI, PDFlib Personalization Server (PPS) - and improves features that have already been highly appreciated in existing versions. Highlights are: * Fonts: Font engine with full Unicode handling and support for Chinese, Japanese, and Korean fonts; Kerning for PostScript, TrueType and OpenType fonts; Subsetting for TrueType and OpenType fonts. * Personalization using Blocks: Blocks are customized fields on top of PDF files, that can automatically be filled with variable data coming from a variety of sources. Blocks are interactively created and designed using the PDFlib Block Plugin and can be filled with text, images, or PDF pages in a subsequent server based process. * Layers: PDFlib supports all layer control features available in PDF 1.5, including various controls which are not accessible in Acrobat. * Text formatting: The textflow formatter offers a powerful facility for formatting text according to a variety of options: Unicode text, ragged or justified text, arbitrary font changes, multi-line body text or large tables. * Linearized PDF: PDFlib 6 generates linearized PDF, also known as web-optimized PDF. This enables page-at-a-time download (also known as byteserving) when viewing PDFs in the Web browser, and significantly enhances the user experience. * Tagged PDF: Tagged PDF is the key for accessible PDF according to section 508 in the USA and similar regulations in other countries. PDFlib is the first PDF library for general use which supports Tagged PDF generation. For the first time ever, PDF generated dynamically on the Web server can satisfy accessibility regulations. * Form fields: All types of PDF form fields can be generated and enhanced with JavaScript and other actions. This can be used to create PDF forms dynamically subject to user input or database information. * PDF/X for Prepress: PDFlib 6 is the first software on the market to support generating and processing PDFs according to the latest 2003 editions of the ISO PDF/X standards for prepress (PDF/X-1a:2003, PDF/X-2:2003, and PDF/X-3:2003). General Product Information The PDFlib 6 product line is available in different functionality levels: * PDFlib offers functions for generating PDF output. * PDFlib+PDI includes all PDFlib functions, plus the PDF Import Library (PDI) for including existing PDF pages in the generated output. * The PDFlib Personalization Server (PPS) includes PDFlib+PDI, plus additional functions for automatically filling PDFlib blocks. PPS includes the PDFlib Block Plugin for creating PDF personalization templates interactively in Adobe Acrobat. * PDFlib Lite is a subset of PDFlib. It is available as source code and free for personal use. All products are distributed within a single binary package which is fully functional for evaluation, but displays a demo stamp across all pages. All packages contain full documentation and examples for various programming languages. A valid license key will activate the product levels accordingly. The PDFlib product suite is offered under several licensing and support options. For further details please see: www.pdflib.com/products/vms.html ----------------------------- PDFlib GmbH Tal 40 D-80331 München GERMANY phone +49 89 29 16 46 87 fax +49 89 29 16 46 86 sales@pdflib.com www.pdflib.com ------------------------------ Munich-based PDFlib GmbH, founded in 2000, develops and sells leading edge development tools for server-centric generation and processing of PDF documents. With currently 10 employees a revenue of 2.3 million Euro was generated in 2003. Customers of PDFlib GmbH use the software for automated and high volume generation and processing of PDF documents in business and prepress workflows or for online billing systems. The development tools of PDFlib GmbH are readily available for all common environments (operating systems and programming languages) as commercial versions and partially as open source. PDFlib GmbH sells worldwide with main markets in North America, Germany and Japan. PDFlib GmbH is led by Thomas Merz, internationally renowned expert on PDF. ---------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2005.036 ************************